Page 21 | Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

aseriesofstillimages · 2022-08-07T11:36:09+00:00

I have seen various people on this forum say that to be gay or a lesbian is to be ‘exclusively same sex attracted’, and that therefore, for example, a woman who is attracted to or in a relationship with a trans woman cannot correctly describe herself as a lesbian. Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity, I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable. If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women, but then am attracted to and get off with a woman in a bar who I subsequently find out is trans, do I immediately stop being a lesbian? What if I don’t stop finding the trans woman attractive after learning that she’s trans? What if I never find out she was trans - is it the case that I have ceased being a lesbian, but will never know this?

FrippEnos · 16/08/2022 09:05

aseriesofstillimages

I haven't answer your question for two reasons.
1/ You have been unable to form the question in a way that makes it answerable.
2/ It is a false equivalence to sex, sexuality and gender.

For the rest of it you have to start with a base point.

If they dig up a skeleton they will be able to give it a sex, pelvic width, hip length, bone density and DNA. Male/Female.

These are scientific facts.

Sexuality definitions are equally as easy

Attracted to opposite sex = heterosexual
Attracted to the same sex = homosexual
Subgroup of homosexual = female female attraction = lesbian
Subgroup of homosexual = male male attraction = gay
Attracted to both sexes = bisexual
Lack of attraction to any other sex = Asexual

Then you have intersex people who have asked to be left out of this.

Others may want to identify by their gender and how they feel, but a lot of us don't want or need to and identify by the sex that we are born as and do not need extra labels placed on us or those terms redefined to fit how an ideology thinks others should be seen.

It only get complex because people are making it complex.

I am quite happy to respect that people "feel" that they are a "woman" or a "man" but when you start pushing terms out like female penis, or a lesbian must fancy a transwoman or they are a transphobe then you lose all respect.

And I know that even thinking this way (in some circles) makes me a transphobe but it is a protected belief and it is held by many people.

DaughterofDawn · 16/08/2022 01:55

dyed* sorry auto correct got me

DaughterofDawn · 16/08/2022 01:54

aseriesofstillimages · 16/08/2022 01:22

I thought the question was pretty obvious, so I’m not sure why you haven’t answered it yet?

I was trying to make a very simple point, in response to your statement that you can’t know you are something if you can’t define it. As I said before, I don’t think you have to be able to define a term in a completely comprehensive way in order to know it applies to you (or doesn’t). There are plenty of meaningful identity categories where many people might reasonably consider themselves to be inside or outside the category, based on the same facts.

The term ‘Black’ is a good example, in that it is a very important identity for many people, but its meaning varies between different cultures and times, and some people reject it completely. I know some people of mixed heritage who consider themselves Black and others who don’t. I don’t think you can specify a set of criteria that you can apply to every person in the English speaking world to determine whether or not they are Black.

i think sexuality categories are similar. I consider myself bisexual, but I couldn’t give a definition that would definitively ‘sort’ everyone else in or out. You can start with a basic ‘person who is attracted both to people of the same sex and the opposite sex’ formulation. But does a person have to be attracted to both at least one man and at least one woman at any given point in time to be bisexual? So then you could refine it further - a person is bisexual if they have, over the course of their life to date, ever been attracted to at least one man and at least one woman. But then what do we mean by ‘attracted’? What if I once had a crush of someone of the same sex, but have only had sex and relationship with people of the opposite sex - am I really bisexual, or just straight? What if I spend my twenties thinking I’m bisexual, but then have sex with a man for the first time at 30 and realise I don’t enjoy it, so I decide in future to only have sex with women, even though I find men desirable.

And what if I date men up to my 40s but then meet and fall in love with a woman, and never find myself attracted to a man again - was I always bisexual, or have I become a lesbian?

surely in the margins you have to give people space for self-determination?

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We don’t let people self identify as indigenous. They have cards. Should we burn the cards and let folks self identify as that? My grandmother who comes from a LOOOOONNNGGG line of white ancestors died her hair black and claimed to be cherokee for years. Bought all the things she thought looked cherokee to her and decorated her house with it. In fact there was a point where I had an identity crisis when I found out she was lying about it. But it’s her identity. Maybe she can identify as cherokee. They can also cross borders into canada without much hassle because the land is technically stolen from them. Why not just let them identify their way in and out of the US and Canada? 😂🤷🏻‍♀️

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 16/08/2022 01:22

FrippEnos · 15/08/2022 20:43

You have asked three times and have been unable even to form the question what is a black person? with out putting caveats into the question.

You are desperately trying to move from denying someone's sex and sexuality to trying to redefine what the race of a person is.

Why is it so important to you to remove the protection of other people so that the only protected people are the ones that are trying to remove the protection of others.

Show quote history

I thought the question was pretty obvious, so I’m not sure why you haven’t answered it yet?

I was trying to make a very simple point, in response to your statement that you can’t know you are something if you can’t define it. As I said before, I don’t think you have to be able to define a term in a completely comprehensive way in order to know it applies to you (or doesn’t). There are plenty of meaningful identity categories where many people might reasonably consider themselves to be inside or outside the category, based on the same facts.

The term ‘Black’ is a good example, in that it is a very important identity for many people, but its meaning varies between different cultures and times, and some people reject it completely. I know some people of mixed heritage who consider themselves Black and others who don’t. I don’t think you can specify a set of criteria that you can apply to every person in the English speaking world to determine whether or not they are Black.

i think sexuality categories are similar. I consider myself bisexual, but I couldn’t give a definition that would definitively ‘sort’ everyone else in or out. You can start with a basic ‘person who is attracted both to people of the same sex and the opposite sex’ formulation. But does a person have to be attracted to both at least one man and at least one woman at any given point in time to be bisexual? So then you could refine it further - a person is bisexual if they have, over the course of their life to date, ever been attracted to at least one man and at least one woman. But then what do we mean by ‘attracted’? What if I once had a crush of someone of the same sex, but have only had sex and relationship with people of the opposite sex - am I really bisexual, or just straight? What if I spend my twenties thinking I’m bisexual, but then have sex with a man for the first time at 30 and realise I don’t enjoy it, so I decide in future to only have sex with women, even though I find men desirable.

And what if I date men up to my 40s but then meet and fall in love with a woman, and never find myself attracted to a man again - was I always bisexual, or have I become a lesbian?

surely in the margins you have to give people space for self-determination?

OP posts:

Agrona · 16/08/2022 00:04

Intensely curious if this is yet another attempt to define lesbians as anyone who 'believes' they are a lesbian but in reality they are really a heterosexual man who 'believes' or identifes as a 'transwoman' and a 'lesbian'.

FrippEnos · 15/08/2022 20:43

aseriesofstillimages · 15/08/2022 19:05

I didn’t realise this was just a game to you. If you’re not going to engage seriously I don’t see why I should bother.

Show quote history

You have asked three times and have been unable even to form the question what is a black person? with out putting caveats into the question.

You are desperately trying to move from denying someone's sex and sexuality to trying to redefine what the race of a person is.

Why is it so important to you to remove the protection of other people so that the only protected people are the ones that are trying to remove the protection of others.

LynneBenfield · 15/08/2022 20:35

Another one of these whataboutery threads?

DirtyDuchess · 15/08/2022 20:32

I must say, I've really enjoyed this thread and the way it's been conducted, I think I would direct anyone who hasn't formulated their views on the gender argument here because the answers have been concrete.

A shout out to donquixotedelamancha and many others for fantastic responses. I think it will now end as the unanswerable question of 'what is a woman?' has been asked but hats off to Still Images for persevering and really drawing out why it's a short, sharp NO to men's entitlement to women and their spaces.

Thank you ladies

BadNomad · 15/08/2022 19:31

Lesbians have had to deal with this bullshit for years. If your girlfriend is "butch" i.e. doesn't look like a stereotype of a woman, you're not really a lesbian because you're actually attracted to a man. But your girlfriend is because men are attracted to women and that's why she looks like a man🙄

BadNomad · 15/08/2022 19:22

What has being black got to do with the price of bread?

If you are a female woman in a relationship with a female woman, or are attracted to female women, you are either lesbian or bisexual.

If you are a female woman in a relationship with a male man, or are attracted to male men, you are either straight or bisexual.

If you are a female woman in a relationship with a male woman (transwoman), or are attracted to male women (transwoman), you are not a lesbian.

It's really not difficult. Sex matters. It doesn't matter if you grow your hair long, paint your face, chop your balls off and call yourself Mandy, you are not a lesbian and neither is your girlfriend.

CompleteGinasaur · 15/08/2022 19:16

Oh good, you're back. Could we have a definition of woman that is not circular or self-referential, please; and how your friend's partner conforms to that definition? As a lesbian is a woman who is exclusively attracted to other women this would seem to be foundational.

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 15/08/2022 19:05

FrippEnos · 15/08/2022 14:30

You've changed it again, but as you have asked so nicely my definition of black is

"of the very darkest colour owing to the absence of or complete absorption of light; the opposite of white."

but again specifics would but nice.

Show quote history

I didn’t realise this was just a game to you. If you’re not going to engage seriously I don’t see why I should bother.

OP posts:

TheWeeDonkey · 15/08/2022 18:43

aseriesofstillimages · 15/08/2022 14:11

I’m still waiting for your definition of Black….

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At this point you're just taking the piss. I can't believe this conversation is still ongoing.

Franca123 · 15/08/2022 17:23

Protected characteristic not belief. Sorry!

DaughterofDawn · 15/08/2022 15:44

Franca123 · 15/08/2022 14:51

So now the OP is trying to undermine the basis for race as a protected belief not satisfied with undermining sex protection and sexual orientation protection. Just stop talking.

Not surprising. Have you heard of Oli London? He I mean they are very hated but have actually picked up a bit of a following and people are starting to subscribe to their ideology that they can be trans korean. I guess soon enough not only will I be a terrible privilege cis gender women but also a terrible cis race person. Give it five to ten years.

Franca123 · 15/08/2022 14:51

So now the OP is trying to undermine the basis for race as a protected belief not satisfied with undermining sex protection and sexual orientation protection. Just stop talking.

FrippEnos · 15/08/2022 14:31

Now if you could answer how you can be something if you can't define it, that would be nice as well.

FrippEnos · 15/08/2022 14:30

aseriesofstillimages · 15/08/2022 14:11

I’m still waiting for your definition of Black….

Show quote history

You've changed it again, but as you have asked so nicely my definition of black is

"of the very darkest colour owing to the absence of or complete absorption of light; the opposite of white."

but again specifics would but nice.

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 15/08/2022 14:11

FrippEnos · 15/08/2022 11:29

How do you know you are something if you can't define it?

Show quote history

I’m still waiting for your definition of Black….

OP posts:

FrippEnos · 15/08/2022 11:29

aseriesofstillimages · 14/08/2022 23:10

I can’t, which is exactly my point - I don’t think it’s correct to say you can’t be something if you can’t define it.

How do you know you are something if you can't define it?

CompleteGinasaur · 15/08/2022 11:21

aseriesofstillimages · 14/08/2022 23:10

I can’t, which is exactly my point - I don’t think it’s correct to say you can’t be something if you can’t define it.

I don't think it's correct to say you can be something if you can't define it, either, op. So can you define woman for me, please? And then show me how this definition applies to your friend's partner?

FrippEnos · 15/08/2022 11:16

@aseriesofstillimages

I don't know if this has been asked but why are you so concerned about how these terms are defined?

It seems to me that you are quite happy to redefine terms that do not suit your purpose at the expense of those that define themselves by these terms.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 15/08/2022 11:02

Goingtofast · 14/08/2022 23:49

I’m just so done with this crap, I can’t believe we need to have this conversation.
Lesbians are same sex attracted that is a fact.
A lesbian who finds herself shagging a male is no longer a lesbian by definition, and no I don’t buy the ‘a woman knows her own sexuality and can label it however she wants’ bollocks, because she very clearly doesn’t! you can’t just identify however you please and expect everyone to pretend with you, words have meaning ffs.

Sincerely
a fed up lesbian.

100% agree, @Goingtofast!!

QueenHippolyta · 15/08/2022 10:56

Op: I find it hard to imagine how straight or gay people can know they will never, in the whole course of their life, fall for someone of the same/opposite sex.

translation for Lesbians:
How do you know you don't like cck if you haven't tried it? or
This is different; my cck is different; try it....

This is exactly ( as so many have said before me) the same cr*p that we Lesbians have been getting from straight men for years...
How do you know you don't like it =
how do you know you won't fall for the same gender person
and like it
17 pages trying to pull the same old nonsense.

LK1972 · 15/08/2022 00:31

I've read 'I identify as a lesbian' on someone's professional profile before, and whilst I'm actually pretty certain this person IS a lesbian, I rather reject the formulation.

It's like sex, you're either male or female, it's not an identity but a description. It only holds a value judgment for those who think one is better than the other.