Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

Ok, @OP

If lesbian is the umbrella term.

Then for biological women who want to date biological women, can they have a term for that? Can they have a term for wanting to have groups that focus on that? Dating profiles that say that?

Because currently those women are being bullied out of that.

Completely agree, Bernard.

Yep

i suspect our visitor won’t return to this thread, although I have little doubt they’ll return to the board, likely under a name change

I’m trying (generally unsuccessfully) to have some sympathy for the genderists who come here, especially those who are brave enough not to just plop and run

I work on the assumption that they have someone important to them who is applying emotional pressure to buy into the big lie, hence the feeling of almost panic whenever things get too close to the bone.

they cannot deviate for fear of losing someone too important to lose, regardless of what their rational brain is telling them. It’s the dynamic that I would guess is at play in Joanne Harris’s behaviour.

I think the panic explains the often vicious attempts to enforce orthodoxy, and the characterisation of people who don’t follow their beliefs as in some way evil or mad (see the ‘religious maniacs’ theme on this thread)

<armchair psychology ends>

the implication of what you’re all saying is that straight women have less of a right to say no to a man than lesbians do - surely that can’t be right? We all have the right to say no - to unwanted sexual contact, attention, whatever - without giving a reason.

Er, no. As a straight woman, I have the right to say no to any male I choose (and obviously every female). As a lesbian, women should be able to turn down all males on the basis of their sexual orientation, regardless of personal identity, and that should be the end of it.

They also can turn down any female they are not interested in. But being a proud lesbian means they aren't sexually interested in men. Do you agree that lesbian and gay people should be able to be open about being attracted to only one sex? Bit homophobic otherwise.

This. It really is that simple. TRAs tend to let the women who fawn over them do most of the dirty work. It must be tough to come around from the cognitive dissonance and realise how much you've been had, so I can kind of understand the resistance people have to examining their beliefs in any depth.

I mean, I’m trying to give you all the benefit of the doubt, but the evidence is pointing that way

Oh look, your mask fell off. No you are not the educated and rational person in this conversation.

If a straight woman gets off with a female friend and then goes back to being het, she's still straight.

This was me. In the late 90s/early 2000s, "bicurious" was where it was at. I was not really all that interested, I just wanted to be edgy and transgressive when same sex attraction was still slightly taboo. I did it with 2 safe female friends who also were straight. None of us have decided since that we are bisexual or lesbians.

I am not bisexual, I have no feelings of attraction towards my own sex.

Brilliantly said, Artichoke.

@OP You'll find that many lesbians have had sex with men, and many straight people have had homosexual experiences.

This is ok, and pretty normal.

Also many people view their sexuality one way, and then are sideswiped and fall for someone who they wouldn't have considered as part of their dating pool (probably more common that previously heterosexual people fall for someone of the same sex, but it happens the other way too).

There's a bit of bi (or pan if you like) in a lot more people than they may think. Sexually can be fluid. Again, that's fine. We have too many labels IMO and I think people should be less attached to them.

But as PP have said, words do have meanings, and a lesbian is a woman who is same sec attracted; who wants sexual and romantic relationship only with other women.

What happens when we get too attached to labels is that we can over identify with them. This links to the current use of 'identity'.

A woman who sees herself as a lesbian, and hits it off with a man in a bar, or with a trans woman, and has sex because both parties want to, then good for her (remember that casual sex is basically hedonism anyway, and fun is fun, these things happen).

Whether she is 'still a lesbian' I suppose depends what happens next.

If a straight woman gets off with a female friend and then goes back to being het, she's still straight.

Consider the 'girl crush'; the straight girl who has special feelings for another women (usually a celebrity). A couple of years ago there was a wave of straight girls on social media saying they'd 'go gay' for Ruby Rose. And who could blame them?

In short, don't be over concerned with labelling yourself. Love, fancy or shag as you will.

But the problem with a couple as you describe calling themselves a lesbian couple ripples out, and blurs boundaries for other people.

Lesbians have the right to be exclusively same sex attracted. And it's ok to not be a lesbian even if you've previously considered yourself to be so.

and as for why I think you're having this argument for anyone other than yourself, well you don't benefit in any way from this redefining of gay women's understanding of themselves from underneath them.

but a certain class of men do.

so it may not feel like it to you, but you are working for free for other people's benefit. that probably makes you feel good, because you feel passionate about it. but you've spent much effort here trying to justify your beliefs. I'm guessing it has made you uncomfortable at times because cognitive dissonance will do that when you get too close to the source of the contradiction.

you don't buy into 'us and them'? in what respect?

you think I 'believe themselves to have privileged knowledge of an absolute truth - in a manner reminiscent of religious fervour - and then foist that on other people to contradict their own understanding of their sexuality'

that feels pretty damn othering I can tell you. Of course you believe in us and them

that's interesting

so there is a fuzzy line. on one side of which a man joining a lesbian dating app is a common or garden creepy boundary pushing man

on the other side of that line, after he has made enough unspecified effort, he is now a transwoman, and therefore emphatically not a creepy boundary pushing man. and in fact anyone who thinks he is 'believe(s) themselves to have privileged knowledge of an absolute truth - in a manner reminiscent of religious fervour - and then foist(s) that on other people to contradict their own understanding of their sexuality', to quote you.

you do see how unreasonable that is don't you?

and how unfair it is to condemn people in those terms who have a perfectly reasonable belief: that women have the kind of body that produces eggs and can gestate babies, and that humans can't change sex.

Hang on, what is the fuzzy line between a straight person and a bisexual?

I see no fuzzy line. Either you like penis or vagina, or you like both. That's isn't fuzzy, it's very clear.

You'd like it to be fuzzy and subjective, and are arguing hard for it to be so, largely because you'd like people who aren't actually homosexual females to use the word and identity they'd like to try on without feeling guilt about it.

I'm not helping you out with that.

You're helping male people bully homosexual females into straight sex, and shun and exclude the ones who won't co operatively submit to conversion. You can't have it both ways. Either you respect the right of people to be homosexual and to have their own terms and identity, or you feel there is the right of non homosexual people to control and use them for their own purposes. Which is it?

back on 12 August you said this OP

to be honest, if a person said they were a trans woman but had taken no steps at all to transition - whether medically or socially - I would internally question what it means for them to be a woman, or trans. And if a woman who said they were a lesbian was in a relationship with that person, I would internally question what it means for them to be a lesbian

so I think for you what turns a man into a transwoman, therefore no longer a man, and so definitely not a straight man trying to use lesbians for validation, is the amount of effort he has put into transition.

I'm interested in what you would expect that effort to look like? where does our man cross the line, and become a transwoman?

Yes this right here. And she is making it sound as if she is the only educated person in this and we’re all just simpletons who lack compassion and are sorely unlearned.

You are asking gay women to reframe their sexuality because there are straight men who want to have sex with them.

I'm afraid this is what it boils down to @aseriesofstillimages

I'm wondering why you're scrambling around to do this work for men?

The bottom line is, you don’t pressure people, or pursue people who aren’t interested in you

what, like being a man and signing up to a lesbian dating app? or being a man and joining a lesbian social group?

the implication of what you’re all saying is that straight women have less of a right to say no to a man than lesbians do - surely that can’t be right?

nah. but straight women don't provide validation to men who want their identity to be validated by dating a 'lesbian'

We all have the right to say no - to unwanted sexual contact, attention, whatever - without giving a reason.

yes indeed. I read your BBC article, would you take a look at this one?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

it's called 'The lesbians who feel pressured to have sex and relationships with trans women'

I presume you're aware of Nancy Kelly (head of stonewall)'s 'lesbians are sexual racists' comment:

Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

it's rather naive to say that lesbians are not experiencing any coercion to 'include men (you would say transwomen) in their dating pool' isn't it?

that used to be called straight up homophobia in my day....

Ah, I also wanted to post this for my straight sisters, who are kind and sympathetic to effiminate gay men, Lesbians know about this but you probably might not.
True story: around 2019 an effeminate gay man whom I'm acquaintance-friendly with for about a year over a mutual interest, posts in facebook about letting transwomen and effeminate gay men in women's bathrooms.

Now, I know him. He has zero interest in women, I could probably beat him up too.
I said:
"Women have periods, hot flushes and other problems, we need our privacy away from men.
Why don't you start a project with other gay men to change male bathroom culture to be welcoming to trans and feminine gay men."

Well, he had zero interest in that! I told him: "You're 34, I'm not your mother, it's time for you to do the work and get off your behind."

He blocked me.
The majority of Gay men feel for other men, whether they are transwomen or effeminate gay men. They expect women to be their mothers and be kind and do the work for them.

Ladies: BE UNKIND!