Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

This, exactly.

And when you start moving onto telling people:

Ah but this is not a steak, it's a different kind of plant. I identify as it being plant based.

It had a plant hormone wash during creation which made it not meat.

Meat is a spectrum. Without biological testing you can't prove this steak is meat.

It's literal violence to not agree with me that I am eating a plant based steak if I say so and if you misname it by calling it meat then it's a hate crime?

.... you're welcome to believe whatever you like. And so am I. And I'm not enacting beliefs that I do not hold.

I'll also repeat in small words:

No one here wishes to control how others define their sexuality. Because that would be beyond weird and suggest you'd be a lot happier living in North Korea.

The point is that if you choose to call yourself vegan while stuffing down beef steak, regardless of how much you like thinking of yourself and talking about yourself as a vegan, people are going to think you're a bit odd and may point out to you that you're being silly, kidding yourself and no, you're really not a vegan, are you? You're actually an omnivore, which is fine. But different to veganism.

If you go into a lot of convoluted bull about how vegans CAN eat meat and it's discriminatory to gatekeep veganism, they're probably going to think you really do have a problem.

If you support the political efforts to legally reframe veganism to mean meat eating, start trying to coerce vegans into eating meat, call them names for not being meat eating vegans, take over vegan groups and make them meat eating, shun, shame and exclude non meat eating vegans from veganism? People are going to get really pissed off with you and say so in increasingly blunt terms.

It's a bit daft to expect otherwise.

QueenHippolyta

It is desperately sad, I agree. I have had quite a number posters tell that this is not true. But I have seen it myself. This is happening.

So, when posters say no lesbians are being impacted, they often forget about this age group coming up. And fuck off anyone who tries to tell me that this is not coercive in nature. It definitely fits coercive in my definition of it. It may be coming directly from peers, but it had to be coming from somewhere for those girls to be repeating it so righteously.

The OP's basic message has been that it is ok for a person to reject sex with any other person in theory, but not to claim a sexual orientation that excludes any known group by a characteristic.

Basically this means a view that homosexuality is morally and ethically wrong.

And fuck off with that please.

Be attracted to whoever you want. Have fun. Have a wonderful time. That's lovely. But unless you are a biological female exclusively attracted to other biological females you are not a lesbian. However much you like the word and identity it is not yours.

I've known plenty of lesbians and gay men who started out in hetero relationships, went through the 'am I bi?' stage of realising, and then moved to wanting exclusively homosexual relationships. They know the difference. We all know the difference. This endless bloody wangling to try and force females to give up and just let male people do whatever they fuck they want at their expense is getting really old and tired now, and it was pretty grim behaviour to start with.

Be yourself. Have a lovely time. Your boundary is not to shit on other people. It's really not difficult. I think I said that around page 1. But the OP's comment here:

my views on whether individuals should be (within reason) allowed to define their own sexuality

Makes it pretty clear really. The OP does not see homosexual people or indeed other people as equally or fully human or entitled to act without the OP's reasoned decisions around defining themselves. They seem to be some kind of subclass scum. However the OP expects those subordinated others as owing unconditional acceptance and enablement for the OP and presumably whoever else the OP deigns as above them, to label and define themselves any way they want.

Double standards incidentally being a well known dynamic of abusive relationships.

This is FUBAR.

This is terrible @Helleofabore so desperately sad.
I found a queer lgbtq article against 'gold star lesbians' dating back to 2016....I think this is when it really began. Tearing down the concept of strong early same-sex sexuality + downgrading older women and separating the generations.

When I came out the older Lesbians were fantastic, giving me advice, being supportive, informing me about lesbian culture (I was clueless). I felt such closeness and gratitude to my older lesbian sisters..

3rd Wave feminism which denigrated the great women of the 2nd Wave was the start to detach us from our strong feminist roots and pride in our past foremothers. Young lesbians don't have the role models I did and they need us more than ever. They and all young women need strong older women to tell them what's going on, why it serves men and how to say 'NO!' in a loud strong proud voice.
And to stop being kind.
transwomen are not our problem; they're men's. Let men do the work and be kind to transwomen.

Women only sports, women only dating apps, women only swimmming pools, women only prisons, women only hospital wards, women only reserved places

Sporty women, feminine women, masculine women, androgynous women
we're all women! Unite Ladies and reclaim our rights!

being more or less hairy

Ah so being attracted to women is about being attracted to "less hairy" people?

Now the teenagers are telling each other that they need to accept transdick or they are transphobic. I have seen the conversations groups of young teenaged lesbians have in front of me. I have heard this repeated now numerous times.

Teenaged lesbians are telling each other they need to accept transdick and that if they are attracted to transboys, they are not lesbians.

Some of the evidence about the effect of hormone exposure in the womb on later sexuality also suggests that the same processes can cause a person to identify as the opposite sex, but I don’t think the evidence on either count it particularly robust.

Oh great now the risible bollocks about 'hormone washing' in the womb ffs.

It sounds like you just don't believe that same sex attraction is genuine. That's the only reasonable explanation I can come to based on what you've said. Otherwise how could it be reversed by some internalised decision in the other person?

Op doesn't believe that a persons sex should play any part in sexual attraction whatever that sexual attraction is which is as deluded as those who think sex change is possible.

Op

Do you think some people are exclusively same sex attracted?

Do you think those people should be protected against discrimination?

Yes, people can be attracted to all kinds of combinations of body parts and there are of course people attracted to trans identifying people, whether they have physically transitioned to any degree or not at all. Why does that mean a transwoman should be able to call themselves a lesbian?

What would be a good idea is for people to be able to have spaces to meet people open to their personal proclivities and not, say, put themselves on a lesbian dating app.

I remember in 2010 feeling pretty happy. I had a big lesbian social group, fab lesbian dating apps, pretty great societal acceptance. Life was good

I really thought that girls, who discovered their sexuality as lesbian at a young age like I did, would grow up free and happy gold star lesbians, never having to go through my university attempt to be 'normal' by trying to have sex with some nice boy and sobbing desperately as at the last minute I couldn't do it; I was repulsed by his body. (he was a doll too, understanding and left my dorm room)

And now it's even worse! Young lesbian girls forcing themselves to have sex with transwomen to be kind, trying to get over their repulsion to male bodies...

All under the aegis of LGBTQ!

Well I left in 2018, I couldn't stand it. My solidarity is solely with the female sex; I stand by and support sisterhood of all women and same-sex lesbianism.

a person’s attraction can be as much or more about other aspects of the body - having or not having breasts, being more or less hairy, general build, even pitch of voice

And nothing about that would change because someone's 'decided' they're a woman

And of course for many people the face is the most important aspect of attraction.

Or indeed this

It sounds like you just don't believe that same sex attraction is genuine. That's the only reasonable explanation I can come to based on what you've said. Otherwise how could it be reversed by some internalised decision in the other person?

I can't even wrap my head around the supposed logic here.

If a person is not attracted to male bodies, they aren't attracted to male bodies.

The fact that the male body in question has decided in their head they're a woman changes nothing about the situation from the potential partners point of view. Their feelings about male bodies remain exactly the same.

Id be interested in the OP's thoughts on this.

Also. There's nothing wrong with people (gay or straight) considering whether they have some bisexual leanings. It could well be the case that most of us would be a bit bisexual given the opportunity (look at our cousins the bonobos), but centuries of homophobia/biphobia have kept that under wraps. The world might be a better place if we moved away from the "oh, no, that's GAY FEELINGS" paranoia that still exists for many heterosexuals and accepted that feeling attraction to a wide variety of people might be perfectly okay.

But that never, ever erases the fact that everyone is allowed to draw sexual boundaries. And that if someone says they only feel attraction to biological males or females, they are not required to consider trans partners if that's not what floats their boat and they don't subscribe to the TWAW/TMAM belief system, and should not be shamed for doing so.

This thread is a real time demonstration of just how much damage peddling the lie that people can change sex and TWAW/TMAM is doing to the trans community, the LGB community and society as a whole.

For one example of this, have a listen to Julie Bindel's interview with Sinead Watson. Ms Watson gives a very detailed (and quite shocking) account of the affirmative "care" she was given by the Glasgow gender identity clinic.

juliebindel.substack.com/p/close-down-sandyford-gender-clinic#details

I guess I'd ask what's wrong with using a broader term such as bisexual, pansexual, or queer (apologies, I know that last term is offensive to some, but it's widely used these days) if they are attracted to both trans and non-trans individuals. Why is it necessary to use the term "lesbian" for someone willing to form romantic and sexual partnerships with female-presenting individuals of either sex? Whose identity is being validated by this usage and why is it so important? What is then implied by the use of that term for someone who wishes to date only biological women--does it not really make any difference (who you sleep with is essentially your own private decision, after all) or does it create an expectation that you are open to all female-presenting potential partners, and that you are a bad person or bad lesbian if you then draw particular boundaries? And where is the greatest harm done?

I've been trying to think of parallels. How do you define who is and isn't a Christian, for example? Can a person who claims to be Christian be told that they have no right to that label, because they support gay marriage, or because they don't give away their wealth to the poor and show compassion to immigrants? In those cases, I feel it's not up to me to tell other people how they are allowed to identify religiously--but I can have my private opinion on whether they are the kind of Christian I approve of or not.

But that's a belief system, not a biological drive. It's not my place to dictate to others how they should enact a belief system. But I'm uncomfortable with the idea that something rooted in biology can be redefined in the same way.

I see sexual orientation as a biologically-determined feature.
I see gender identity as a belief system/social construct.
It seems that many people mash the two together these days. Or many see gender identity as a biological reality, but I'm not aware of evidence for that yet.

This thread is a real time demonstration of just how much damage peddling the lie that people can change sex and TWAW/TMAM is doing to the trans community, the LGB community and society as a whole.

Deluding trans people that sex change is possible, that other people believe they are the sex they want to be rather than the sex they are, attempting to force people to play along with the belief to validate and assuage the feelings of the trans person is cruel, people don't believe it, they won't believe it and the kick back against trying to force people to do so is happening as it always would. That is the totally and without question the fault of Stonewall et al and TRAs, they are 100% to blame not anyone else.

You still seem to maintain a bonkers idea that trans women are sexually and physically indistinguishable from women, and that women (or men) who are attracted to women would naturally find transwomen attractive too, if not for social prejudice. It's just not the case.

OP is using the same kind of sophistry, as a gotcha, that people who claim that biological sex doesn't exist because disorders of sexual development sometimes mean that a person's sex is ambiguous, also do.

If you deny there are people that are solely attracted to one sex, that is simply homophobic, whether it comes from the Westboro Baptist Church or Stonewall.

Her statement equally can be applied as, a straight man might wish to consider what societal prejudices may have contributed to him not being attracted to a trans woman. Or, a gay man who puts ‘white/Asian only’ on his Grindr profile might want to think what has shaped his attractions.

No. One of these statements is not like the other. At all.

It is gaslighting to say they are comparable. So, it really isn't just about telling lesbians that they should be open to having their sexual boundaries lowered for the satisfaction of males. It is all sexual orientations are being redefined.

As eresh said, Tell that to most straight men, go on.

I mean really, tell that to all straight men and just see how that all goes and come back and tell us how it went. I would expect that on the whole, heterosexual males will be quite firm in saying that they are heterosexual and they will not be appreciative of being shamed into 'reshaping' their attractions to suit anyone else's needs. Nor having their sexual orientation redefined.

I am not surprised to have read this statement though, having read this thread off and on.

Whereas without societal (and even legal) pressure, most people are perfectly happy have inter-racial sex. The fact that some gay men like to pick and choose isn't really relevant.