Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

that obviously comes back to your view that there is absolutely no meaningful difference between any trans woman and a man.

Yes. Exactly.

In terms of sexuality, homosexual attraction, there is no difference. Because while I respect a TW's choice of term for themselves and their identity, the reality is that they are male. And that is their sex.

A TW may be very attractive, but they are not female and cannot be a female regardless of degree of outer cosmetic changes and choices around dress. To homosexuals this is the key issue. To frame this as a fault in homosexuals and something they should change and overcome to benefit males? Is homophobic. And it sees the male need and entitlement and feelings as more valuable and important than the female - in fact the very language requires the female to see sex with that male as a social duty of being female (they should learn to cope, stop selfishly prioritising their own orgasms) and that male people get to have their feelings catered for by others, while others must train themselves to think and sexually provide access in male centred ways. The female is a resource, with a duty to provide, while the male has no responsibilities and a lot of entitlement. Which makes an absolute nonsense of pretending this isn't rooted in a belief of binary sex classes with set hierarchy and roles.

VestofAbsurdity

To add to your post ( i hope that you don't mind)
We have also had on here anecdotes of people who have had husbands transition and now consider themselves lesbians even though they are having sex with the same person.
It beggars belief.

'I agree that anyone can say no to anyone without having a reason because I'm a nice person who doesn't believe in sexual coercion'.

In actual fact that conversation goes:

'no, no thanks'.

'You're saying no because I'm trans and you're transphobic. WOULD you have sex with a TW?'

'No, because I'm homosexual which means exclusively attracted to biological females, sorry. I'm sure you're lovely but...'

'you're prejudiced, I'm a woman, you're a bigoted bitch, you should overcome your learned genital fetishes....yada yada yada'.

And now you're faced with an angry, upset male, a bigger, stronger male with a sense of sexual entitlement, reading from a political belief which covers Twitter with rape and death threats to women who recognise sex in the meeting of their own needs and feelings. It's like being faced with a male in a female only toilet; the women this does not work for will largely not argue, they will get the fuck out of there as fast and discreetly as possible because they don't want to get hurt.

This business of 'I give you permission to say no to people on an individual basis but never on basis of a group characteristic without calling you names' just allows people to promote TQ+ queer politics (and its homophobia) without getting their hands personally dirty and still feeling nice about themselves. While promoting coercion, homophobia and male supremacism. They don't look at that bit. That's nothing to do with them. They just enable it to happen to other people.

But for a long time is the USA there have been workshops for men to become 'alphas' on how to attract and have sex with women, and it seems to be the same tactics used for transwomen to have sex with women.

Yes and one of the people running those workshops was barred from entry into the UK to run one here on the basis of the content of said workshop, notably @aseriesofstillimages skated right over that when I pointed it out earlier and asked what the difference between the two workshops were.

In what way do I ‘disagree about a lesbian saying no to a man or a trans woman’? I have said more than once (and anyway I would hope it goes without saying) that every person has an absolute right to say no to sexual intimacy or romance with any person, without having to give any reason at all.

What you are deliberately missing here @aseriesofstillimages is that lesbians shouldn't be having to say No to transwomen, transwomen should not be in their spaces and on their dating apps. Lesbian only dating apps, clubs, etc., should be just that lesbian only, no men whatever they identify as.

One of my gay friends is adamant that their is a battle between gay and queer people.
The gays (using the term for gay and lesbian) being older less likely to to take the crap (having fought for their rights) and the queers (is that term allowed now?) siding very firmly with the trans lobby.

But for a long time is the USA there have been workshops for men to become 'alphas' on how to attract and have sex with women, and it seems to be the same tactics used for transwomen to have sex with women.

"We already went through the vegan example, and I explained my view is that this is more analogous to some vegans eating honey, rather than someone claiming to be a vegan while eating meat. I know you disagree, and that obviously comes back to your view that there is absolutely no meaningful difference between any transwoman and a man."

Several things here.

Firstly, Veganism is, unlike sexuality, a matter of choice, a matter of decision. Profoundly principled and ethical choice, but choice nonetheless. As a lesbian Vegan I can -and do - make choices about the kind of food i eat based on my ethical positions, but I cannot make a choice about the kind of person I am sexually attracted to, that is hardwired in.

Secondly, your attempt to identify Veganism as a spectrum rather than an absolute (nothing derived from animals) (along, no doubt, purer or less pure lines : good vegans here - won't even eat honey; less good vegans over there - won't eat meat but occasionally steal from bees) is where this daft rhetorical forced teaming falls down; just as lesbians don't do dick, vegans don't do honey.

And this is why I don't like argument by analogy; extremely slippery beasts, analogies. Stick to proper definitions of what things actually are rather than what you think they are like and we wouldn't have to waste half a whole thread refuting specious disingenuous attempts to prove that not only is there "absolutely no meaningful difference between any transwoman and a man" but black isn't white, either.

And your anecdote of your "lesbian" friend and her male partner.

I imagine from my anecdotal experience that it's the male who is especially attached to the idea of either being or being in a partnership with a "lesbian". Many TRA supporting women seem to think the term "lesbian" is old fashioned and undesirable and prefer "gay" or "queer".

In what way are they different sexually from men?

Well, the OP's friend might think so... but I don't want to speculate about how the OP's friend might think they're different.

that every person has an absolute right to say no to sexual intimacy or romance with any person, without having to give any reason at all.

Is it ok for them to say, "no thanks, I don't want to sleep with you as I'm a lesbian" to any male of whatever gender identity?

In your response to the bbc article you that it wasn't a major problem (paraphrasing).
And your response to the workshops was to say that the person joined stonewall later. Nothing about the workshops that I can remember.
And your anecdote of your "lesbian" friend and her male partner.
But then it circles back around to the importance of the definition of words both lesbian and no.

Fair enough @QueenHippolyta , you're in a better position to judge than I am.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay
take it from me a lifelong Lesbian:
transwomen are men, they are not 'very different' because they may wear makeup or have had some surgery. It makes absolutely NO difference to us Lesbians.

And yet you seem to disagree about a lesbian saying no to a man or a transwoman and don't believe that workshops to coerce women in to sex with these people exist.

"Not quite. A trans women might be very different indeed from other men, even sexually, and espeically post op I would imagine so! But there is not much meaningful sexual similarity between a trans woman and a woman."

In what way are they different sexually from men?
In what way are they different from other men who have had drastic damage done to their sexual organs?
In what way are they different from other men who may be taking hormones for prostate cancer?

In what way is there any sexual similarity with women?

there is absolutely no meaningful difference between any trans woman and a man.

Not quite. A trans women might be very different indeed from other men, even sexually, and espeically post op I would imagine so! But there is not much meaningful sexual similarity between a trans woman and a woman.

Your friend reminds me a bit of the woman who was desperate to have an "unassisted" birth. That's very dangerous, and eventually she agreed to have a midwife present. She got there by convincing herself that this was still "unassisted" - it didn't involve the things she was scared of, like doctors and medical interventions. Everyone else went along with her that having the midwife could be called "unassisted" for her sake and the baby's, but it still wasn't what "unassisted" usually means. And her baby's birth could not be added to the safety statistics for genuinely unassisted births, no matter what she thought.

Yes gay men are expected to have sex with trans men. Heterosexual trans men are often sexually obsessed with gay men frequenting gay bathhouses not just gay bars. There are subreddits where they discuss their fantasies.

If you haven't heard of Mr Menno,I recommend watching his very humorous gender critical videos about this. This was one of his first

Do gay men have vaginas?

So, OP, if "lesbian" has already opened up. Can those biological women who are absolutely sure that they only want to have sex with biological women for whatever reason (lived experience, past trauma or just simple pure preference) have another word for that by which to organise themselves, or is that not allowed?

So true!

In a sane world we would all simply define our own sexuality by freely choosing who we sleep with, no coercion or gaslighting ever involved.

God I couldn't read the whole thread sorry. But are homosexual men expected to have sex with trans men and are they then still gay men?

I'm a bit flumoxxed by all this stuff, so forgive me if I have offended anyone. I know the thread relates to lesbians, but still...