Isn't this a good thing?

But that's where it all falls down. The definition of a woman isn't a man who is sad or uncomfortable about being a male. Women are human you know. With our own set of shared characteristics and experiences which are completely outwith those of men.

When I was first looking into all this quite a few transwomen were upfront about wanting to inhabit the stereotypes of the opposite sex.

One on a thread here said he could only be 'vibrant' presenting as a woman. Another said he envied the 'mean girls' in Hollywood movies. Another that he wanted to go to coffee shops as a 'hot mess'.

It's only since women pointed out the rank sexism of upholding stereotypes in order to adopt them, that many transwomen will no longer define what this internal essence is. Despite wanting to base laws on it, it's just a feeling, different for everyone, indefinable, defying description.

Some do try though.

Grace Lavery likes being 'treated like shit and being the victim of honest, undisguised sexism.'

Julia Serano likes the cliche of women being good for only one thing and being humiliated.

Jacob Tobia wants very badly to be sexually objectified.

Andrea Long Chu describes the 'barest essentials' of femaleness as an open mouth, an expectant asshole and blank, blank eyes.

All these transwomen are noted academics and authors.

It seems that one of the definitions of 'gender' is the fetishisation of women's oppression for the sexual gratification of men.

Perhaps the answer is a side or single room ward if they have one available.

A side or single room on the ward that aligns with their sex is the solution, perfect.

Sorry, bolding went wrong there.

Hi Datum, pretty much yeah I think.

So have I got this straight? To you, gender expression is hair, make up, clothes, etc. None of which is an indication of one's sex?

Yes although not just hair, make up, clothes etc. but the that's the general idea. And yes none of that indicates what sex we are.

I'm not sure if they are an indication of one's internal gender?*

No I don't think it is.*

But in terms of gender identity (gender) one has a sense of whether or not one is male or female through thoughts? That's your internal gender identity?*

Thoughts and feelings yeah.*

Could you, with every word in the English language at your disposal, attempt a description of the thought process a male might have to make him think he has a female gender?*

I'm not sure I even have a strong enough sense of my own gender let alone a males to describe feelings like that in words. But then I don't feel that strongly one way or another, perhaps it would be easier if it was 'wrong'. A sense of wrongness, uncomfortableness, sadness maybe? Who knows everyone is different.*

@SolasAnla yes I suppose pronouns are a form of expression as they are on the outside, I'd need to think about it some more.

In the mean time what I would say is I don't think the word Woman should be removed, and I don't think people should be 'forced' to do anything, I think people can choose how they want to act (or speak) but, rightly or wrongly, recognise that there could be consequences for that action or behaviour.

I would expect a single sex ward in a hospital to be single sex. I would expect the hospital to have a policy that complies with law and ensures dignity for all. The difficulty as you say is what ward should a trans person be put on. Perhaps the answer is a side or single room ward if they have one available, some of the trans people I know are fully medically transitioned and you really can't tell so wouldn't it completely 'out' them to put them on the public ward that aligns with their sex, as well as affecting the other patients on that ward who from the outside it looks like a person of the 'wrong sex' is among them? And even when you can tell I think dignity for all should still be respected so a side room as above is probably the way to go so our single sex spaces are respected.

So have I got this straight? To you, gender expression is hair, make up, clothes, etc. None of which is an indication of one's sex?

I'm not sure if they are an indication of one's internal gender?

But in terms of gender identity (gender) one has a sense of whether or not one is male or female through thoughts? That's your internal gender identity?

Could you, with every word in the English language at your disposal, attempt a description of the thought process a male might have to make him think he has a female gender?

That's sounds like your children's school got it badly wrong. I'm really sorry that happened. Did you talk to the school about it?

What are the demands for the removal of the word woman and forced pronoun, if not the an outward gender expression?

Demanding that the word woman be removed from health campaigns is not an internal feeling it is an action.

Your argument is based around the idea that one's gender behaviours must be recognised and reflected back to oneself by the casual observer or coworker, because to fail to do that caused hurt feelings. So that is not, your definition of gender identity, it is gender expression.

So where is your line? If a word caused hurt feelings how would that rate against being placed on a male hospital ward?

Well @the winter soldier the problem is that the schools dont tell us what they teach, they just go ahead and do it. And personally, I am lucky. I have been a SAHM for years and I am very close to my children so I know exactly what they are taught and I could complain to the school when things went badly wrong (sexualised in primary school and appalling teaching of trans including every stereotype available- outsourced to incompetent, awful company).

but many busy parents have this introduced behind their backs. They will never find out unless their child tells them. Half of the other mums in my DCs class didn’t know and were shocked. They commented after that their DCs had been “off” and “acting strange” after.

I believe we should be able to send our children to school without worrying about what they are taught.

AlisonDonut I don't have young children mine are both over thirty, they know the difference between sex and gender and they know about trans people. I think if present day schools are telling children they can change 'sex' then that's wrong and it's bound to confuse children. It's up to us as parents to know what schools are teaching our children and do our best to bring them up to be safe happy adults. I do worry about what's being taught in schools if the papers can be believed but I don't have any experience of it. But I do know I was very involved in my children's education and was able to explain, add things and interpret stuff they didn't understand. In those days it more related to algebra or English lit but for general sex education they covered at school I also focused on e.g. respect, consent and keeping yourself safe.

I would imagine if they were small and came home saying they had been told they could change sex I might say something like 'well we are all born little boys or little girls' (talk about the physical differences) and then say something like 'some people grow up to feel they are different' (explain how in an age appropriate way) 'but they don't change their physical sex. They might change how they look on the outside, change their name etc etc' depending on age and questions. And that we treat them how they wish to be treated like (insert name of person we know here)

Yes I believe in 'gender' but not 'gender stereotypes'. When I refer to gender I'm talking about what's on the inside because I don't think it really matters what people look like on the outside (and yes from reading on here I know lots of people don't have an internal feeling they just are). So I believe 'gender identity' is what's on the inside (what we feel) and 'gender expression' is what's on the outside (what people see). I think gender stereotypes refer to what people see on the outside (how people expect us to dress or behave, the types of career they expect us to have, etc.) I don't think any of us needs to adhere to stereotypes if we don't want to and stereotypes aren't a good thing. And I honestly don't expect anyone else to believe or behave the same as me.

I might be misremembering, but didn't you say you believe in gender?

I didn't say gender stereotypes don't exist, unfortunately they do. I don't 'believe in them' I don't like them and I said I don't believe we should have to adhere to them. I certainly don't. And no where have I mentioned what I feel about single sex spaces?

You do believe in gender sterotypes if you did not, you would recognise that trans and nonbinary are just new gender sterotypes.

If you did not believe in gender sterotypes your whole framework argument fails.
You believe that I should have to look at a Western dressed bepenised human and reorganise my speech pattern, ignore that I am in what should be a single sex female space, all because he choose to put on Western Female Gender clothing or a Female name/pronoun.

And 'okay' as in that's fine' no sarkiness intended

I'm not sure what 'people like me' means. All you know about me is what I've written on here and other threads. I don't think I've tried to manipulate other people into behaving 'how I'd like' in fact quite the opposite I've stated you and other people can think, believe and act differently to me and that's fine. Of course there's the law and the Ts&Cs of sites, etc. so there are consequences to actions, but people can honestly still think and believe what they want. And I honestly am not trying to deliberately or otherwise misread what you said, the message you wrote was pretty hostile and that's how it came across. You've clarified so okay.

Possibly. I don't think it's that important to reinstate it TBH.

I'm sure you're right. And if you explain the context to HQ, they might reinstate the post once they understand the focus.

It's probably a monitor who decided "I don't care about trans people's mental health" is gross transphobia and therefore a deletable offence, if you ignore the entire context where I pointed out that that's because I don't care about anybody's "mental health" so long as we're unable to properly define that term. You might as well talk about whether we care about people's flibbleflobble. It's just sounds at this point.

When a man goes for a testicle check or whatever I wonder why they aren't up in arms going 'we are women with testicles, not men'

The majority of these people are adult men, of the age you go for these checks. I expected they'd be most eager to get that language changed to refer to "people who have testicles" so they aren't constantly reminded they are male.

The reason the male health pages have not been changed and there is no pressure to do so @rumplestiltskinp is because the NHS and TRAs know damn well that men wouldn't stand for it.

Thanks.

Wow that got deleted quick, I want to make it clear it wasn't me who reported you.

Again with the gratuitous misreading. I said I don't care about anyone's "mental health" because people like you have made "mental health" a meaningless term that you just drag out when you want to manipulate people into behaving how you'd like. I also said I don't feel I'm obligated to participate in someone else's therapy. Neither of those things mean I don't care about people's feelings.

Alright you don't care about anyone else's feelings, you don't have to, I'm just glad I don't live like that.