There’s a male in the women’s 200m final today

I do feel sympathy for people who discover they have a DSD at puberty, I was more irritated by the false claim that none of us actually know what sex we are, because we haven't had a chromosome test.

I agree. I understand that these DSDs exist, and that Mboma almost certainly produces male levels of testosterone and that her body has the capacity to utilise this testosterone in the same way as any other male.

But I don't personally feel the same anger towards these athletes as I do towards regular men who transition and then expect women to step aside for them. It's not fair for these specific DSD athletes to compete against females, but it also doesn't feel fair to vilify them for doing so whilst the rules allow it.

That said, I've been told on here before that scouts deliberately comb schools, villages, junior athletics, actively looking for people they believe to have these particular DSDs. I've never seen any actual evidence of this, but it would change my opinion somewhat.

There is no place in women's sport for men, whether at 100m or the marathon. Time to sort this out!

Mboma knows darn well they are male. Male puberty! No periods, no female puberty! Cheat.

it doesn't seem so straightforward as the Lauren Hibberd and Lia Thomas situations and similar.

Yes. Socially, you are right and it is not as straightforward.

However, there is enough evidence about who experiences male puberty and what those advantages are to also add to the very easily correlated successes of these male athletes that it actually is quite straightforward as to whether they have an advantage that is not available to females or not.

There are for instance some males who are unable to process testosterone and don't experience male puberty. They are actually not limited from competing in female sports. That may change if evidence is showing that there is an advantage. But for now, they are included.

It is only the group who have experienced male puberty that will face future tightening of limitations or outright bans.

World Athletics needs to sort itself out on athletes with DSD conditions.
And TRAs need to remember that Hubbard and Thomas and their like are not the same as athletes with DSDs.

Ive probably used all the wrong words but it doesn't seem so straightforward as the Lauren Hibberd and Lia Thomas situations and similar.

I agree it isn't in a social sense, but the fact remains that this person is male and shouldn't be competing in the female category.

I wonder why the governing body for athletics did not immediately follow the swimming decision.

edit... genetically male....

Gender identity has no place in determining the category of sport that one competes in.

Biology matters - one of the few things me and BJ agree on. If they went through male puberty then they have an advantage in a race where everyone else went through female puberty.

It does not matter if they like wearing dresses & nail varnish or not.

@ZoeQ90.. Mboma knows that she did not go through female puberty and knows that she has XY chromosomes. This is not in question, Mboma is no longer permitted to race in the 800m event on this basis and the fact of her male level testosterone which she has chosen not to reduce. She may be legally female based on genuinely being wrongly assumed to be female at birth but she is male and has known this for quite some time.

And there are cases in history where people who discover this, do stop competing in the female category.

they are male.

They would also know by now that they are male.

Whether they consider themselves female or not, the discussion is about whether they should be racing. For that purpose, and that purpose only, they are male.

I don't know much about this, but presumably when someone with DSD who is being brought up as female but who is XY gets to teenage years, the lack of periods (and maybe other signs?) would indicate an issue?

Any person who gets periods naturally is female whether or not they get their chromosomes tested surely?

And once they had checks and were found to be XY, the only fair thing to do would be to stop racing in women's races, even if profoundly disappointing to someone who had been erroneously brought up believing they are female.

I agree with you ... I think when you are born with the outward appearance of a female and live your life believing that until a chromosome test suggests something different ....its a slightly different situation to being born obviously male and then 'feeling' that you are female.

Ive probably used all the wrong words but it doesn't seem so straightforward as the Lauren Hibberd and Lia Thomas situations and similar.

It is going to take years to unpick the fucked up misinformation that has been allowed to spread thanks to 'being kind' and 'inclusivity'.

The number of posters that enter onto threads to tone police and to censure people when those posters seem to know nothing about the reality or understanding the science that is already known is crazy.

There was one earlier this week who wrote a section in a thesis based on 'females who were excluded from sport due to high testosterone' who when asked for evidence, posted an article about Mboma. The poster could not list any females specifically at all. And went on to say that they did not care what medical professionals and biologists who specialised in either people with differences in sex development or sport used to categorise people by sex (eg testes for testosterone production) that THEY used whether or not someone had a vulva.

This thesis claim was apparently unquestioned.

And now we have another either willfully or just through not bothering to check facts, conflating sex and gender.

Regardless of what they think they know, they are willing to destroy female's fair competition for inclusion.

Regardless of them knowing any easily provable facts about this topic or not.

It must make people who do this tone policing feel really good. Because it is really very thoughtless.

It's perfectly obvious for any woman who has gone through female puberty and especially if she has ever been pregnant, what sex she is. If you don't start having periods you would have medical examinations and if you had CAIS which is what you mean, this would be discovered. No need for most of us to have a test. I know this is a silly Twitter trope but honestly, get better arguments.

@ZoeQ90. Sport is segregated by sex. The court of arbitrarion of sport ruled that athletes who are legally female but genetically male and have gone through male puberty could only compete in the 800m and 1500m if they reduced their levels of testosterone to 3 times that of women. It is incomprehensible that this was not applied to all events. Coe and every other official has known about this for years. Speaking about it now and saying this proves the rules for the 800m and 1500m are right and should be extended is cowardly. They got it wrong, there should be no place in female sport for genetic males. These athletes, their coaches and every official in every race knows this confers an unfair advantage and knows why sport is segregated into male and female but turn away because women are not important.

Well we are!!

Mboma is ranked 4th in the world in 2022 in the Women’s 200m with a time of 21.87.

In the men’s 200m, that time ranks 3241 in the world this year.

It’s a travesty.

You do wonder why someone who doesn't even understand the difference between sex and gender, feels they should post here to lecture us on our tone and tell us we aren't being respectful enough.

Fuck that. Truth isn't disrespectful.

"She has been brought up and considers herself female"

I'm torn between asking exactly how someone can be brought up as a female, or resisting the urge so the thread isn't derailed away from the main point - men shouldn't compete in womens events.

Christine Mboma has a DSD that will be a DSD that only males experience and will have resulted in Mboma having a male virilised puberty.

How Mboma has been raised is actually not relevant in this case.

And gender also has nothing to do with it.

Do you understand that Mboma is only subject to the regulations that they have had to abide by because they are male? And that a female would not have to abide by any regulation at all.

How about you respect females who need to have fair sport?

Christine Mboma has a DSD, she is not 'male'. She has been brought up and considers herself female. With a DSD, that is all we can and should go on when referring to her gender. Whether or not she should be able to compete alongside women without DSD is another discussion but please at least respect her gender.