There’s a male in the women’s 200m final today

"5-alpha reductase deficiency is a condition that affects male sexual development before birth and during puberty. People with this condition are genetically male, with one X and one Y chromosome in each cell, and they have male gonads (testes). Their bodies, however, do not produce enough of a hormone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT has a critical role in male sexual development, and a shortage of this hormone disrupts the formation of the external sex organs before birth.

Many people with 5-alpha reductase deficiency are born with external genitalia that appear female. In other cases, the external genitalia do not look clearly male or clearly female (sometimes called ambiguous genitalia). Still other affected infants have genitalia that appear predominantly male, often with an unusually small penis (micropenis) and the urethra opening on the underside of the penis (hypospadias).

During puberty, an increase in the levels of male sex hormones leads to the development of some secondary sex characteristics, such as increased muscle mass, deepening of the voice, development of pubic hair, and a growth spurt. The penis and scrotum (the sac of skin that holds the testes) grow larger. Unlike many men, people with 5-alpha reductase deficiency do not develop much facial or body hair. Most affected individuals are unable to have biological children without assisted reproduction.

Children with 5-alpha reductase deficiency are often raised as girls. Some of these individuals adopt a male gender role in adolescence or early adulthood, while others adopt a female gender role."

Yes. Mboma is a male human with a DSD. As a result of this, they have male levels of testosterone and have experienced male puberty.

Having the DSD meant that they were incorrectly sexed as female but will have been very well aware that they went through male puberty.

If 1 in 2000 people have a DSD of any kind, it is no coincidence that particular DSDs that only occur in male humans and confer a significant advantage over female humans are so vastly overrepresented in athletics. Anyone would think that there were parties involved who actively sought out people with these conditions.

Seyni finished 4th in the 200m at the Worlds.

How much evidence will they need?

Mboma has no style or technique. Just brute strength.

I understand they have DSD but do they have a penis and testes or a vagina and a womb?

The Kenyan athlete Imali didn't qualify for their final, and i don't know whether this is a good or bad thing. What a ridiculous position to be in.

These runners, even without the testosterong level testing, are so obviously male beneficients. They are taller, have bigger body masses, different muscle developement, they run like the men, they look like men...... against all the female runners, they are obviously so different.

@Helleofabore
Yes I agree, a woman has missed out and that is a travesty. In some ways I want Mboma to win in order to highlight the injustice but I was just pointing out that Mboma may not be at full fitness.
So sick of it all.

But he’s not a biological female. He is an XY male, with testes, who went through male puberty.

I have to wonder at what’s going on inside the head of anyone who makes this claim.

I was as certain as it’s possible to be of my sex when I started having periods, but any conceivable doubt was removed when I became pregnant and gave birth.

Similarly I really didn’t ever question whether my husband was male, but him fathering my children would also tend to confirm this.

No chromosomal tests needed.

Our children are different; their sex too is unambiguous from observing them, but in their case chromosomal tests before they were born were also done, which, of course matched their phenotype.

The biological facts are not a grey area.

They are certainly not when discussing sport and fairness.

They still pushed the Indian athlete out of qualifying though. So, whether they win or not. Their inclusion has meant another female from their own country did not get selected, and the Indian athlete has missed her spot in the next round.

The whole point of this thread is that Mboma isn’t a biological female.

Mboma has a DSD that is exclusively a male disorder. Mboma has benefitted from male puberty with all the physiological advantages that brings and will have levels of T in the male range.

The biological facts are not a grey area.

Mboma has been injured though and missed the Worlds so she may not be on her best form.

No, that’s completely wrong. Semenya, for example is male, and went through a male puberty. There’s no need for the quotation marks around the sex; if he’s male he’s male.

Is it unfair to ask for separate transgender races or is that called excluding?

@CharlieChalkface ... Mboma is biologically male with male levels of testosterone, with a DSD that does not make her organs obvious externally, not biologically female. The distinction is important. The Court of Arbitrarion of Sport ruling makes essential reading on this topic and is very very clear. Mboma is bound by this ruling and excluded from the 800m on that basis, a race where she was previously an olympic medal winner.

Yes.. This is true.

And Mboma knows exactly what sex they are and what condition they have. They have continued to race despite knowing they have these advantages.

Continuing to use the words 'female athletes' is incorrect and leads to confusion.

I read the rules the other day for a different thread. Only XY people can currently be affected by the exclusions. CAIS wouldn't improve performance as no ability to synthesise testosterone.

But they are males. So let's keep referring to the science and use the language that makes the regulations clear.

No females are banned because of the regulations that apply to these athletes. None.

Continuing to call them female spreads misinformation and therefore when the World Athletics will finally put full restrictions on them, which they will, the media will be again continuing to spread this misinformation that females were banned due to reporting restrictions. Because at the moment the cherry picking of events they can compete is in ridiculous and unfair for everyone, so changes will be made in the near future.

The gushing from the BBC makes me sick.
Ennis, Lewis and Johnson know exactly who Mboma is . Gutless cowards.

@CharlieChalkface My understanding is different from yours. My understanding is that when born they thought she was female but actually the DSD is one that only XY (ie male) people can get.

She’s not a man, or a trans woman. She was born a woman and identifies as a woman. She just has a DSD (disorder of sex development) which gives her unusually high testosterone levels for a biological female.

I take your point that people born as biological men should not be competing in women’s sports and agree with it. I think this case is a bit more of a grey area however. Similar to Caster Semenya’s case.

yep

Those posters do tend to follow the same pattern. It seems to be taken directly from other social media platforms and never actually processed through any critical thinking filter.

It's not fair for these specific DSD athletes to compete against females, but it also doesn't feel fair to vilify them for doing so whilst the rules allow it.

That is true to a certain extent. They know by now that they have unfair advantages, they must do or they live in a very curated bubble (which is also possible). If they know they have an unfair advantage and are still competing, as Caster Semenya has been fighting to do, does that make it right? Or is that absolving them of their ability to be fair and I guess, infantilising them.

That said, I've been told on here before that scouts deliberately comb schools, villages, junior athletics, actively looking for people they believe to have these particular DSDs.

I think that you will find there has been involvement of Ekkart Arbeit. Who is a known doper coach, who knows exactly what testosterone does and the advantages those males have in competition with females.

There is not a great deal to be found about it, but his name keeps popping up in conjunction to several of the athletes who are subject to these restrictions.

The real mystery is how two athletes with such rare conditions have in recent years been included in the Namibian squad. I mean, what are the odds……..