There’s a male in the women’s 200m final today

Werkwuha Getachew of Ethiopia just won the women's 3,000m steeplechase in the Diamond League meeting in Monaco.

Getachew took silver in the World Champs a few weeks ago in their first season at the event. Getachew used to run the 800m...

and congratulations to Lizzie Bird who ran a new British record in third place

Exactly. As if there aren't any poor Namibian girls.

they still shouldn’t be running in women’s events. They should never have been in this situation.

It’s the sporting institutions that choose to scout for and preferentially train people with DSDs over girls and women that I have a real problem with. I do think the athletes affected have been exploited in various ways.

Tell me, Bear, have you some reason to assume that Namibia's Mboma and Masilingi didn't displace Namibian women with equally unfortunate histories from reaching the Games?

I get the feeling you're trying to go for turning it into a White Western Women versus Black Teenager with Male Chromosomes thing, but I think you've forgotten that women exist in Namibia too.

These athletes are taking opportunities away from women in their own country too. It should be acknowledged that they're doing this with the support of sporting institutions that would rather train them than women (Namibia didn't have to select any of these individuals...) but they're not only having an impact on western women.

Mboma's team mate - Beatrice Masilingi - deprived another woman of a spot. I wonder how many women they actually have in the women's squad.

I'm with you. I don't think the current rules are fair, but I don't judge anyone for perfectly legally using those current rules to their advantage.

And I’m agreeing with you

but posters are saying that they would behave differently from mboma in exactly the same circumstances. It’s a moral judgement about that individual - a poor, black, African teenager with siblings to support - that they don’t need to make their case. And I don’t believe them

No one is "sticking the boot in", just demanding fair competition. If fair competition means that Christine Mboma's game is up, so be it.

No, I don’t. I don’t think I’ve said that

but, in mboma’s place, I’d do a lot more than entering a running race I wasn’t qualified for to ensure my family had food and shelter.

as I say, I agree in principle. But the sticking the boot into a 19 year old African kid, with the specific circumstances I’ve outlined, makes me a bit queasy

This! Nicely said, viques.

I wonder how many similarly talented young Namibian athletes who have the misfortune to be actual women could tell a similar story of bereavement, poverty and family expectations. Quite a few I imagine.

Sadly, because the chances of them managing to win on the international circuit against other women is very small, they won’t have been scouted and supported to compete and win lucrative contracts.

I don’t think structural economic issues in Namibia are women athlete’s problem to solve. Do you?

Their needs do not outweigh the principles of fairness in sport.

There are plenty of needy people in the world. They don't get to take the place of women.

Namibian Athletics have a lot to answer for.

I’m not sure about this. First, I don’t think people who are chromosomally male should be completing in womens athletics. I think this is a no-brainer for reasons set out elsewhere.

mboma grew up in an impoverished village in northern Namibia. Their dad left the family when they were young and their mum died in childbirth when they were 13, leaving Mboma to provide for two younger siblings. Athletics will have presumably been the means for ensuring the family had food and shelter.

i think, here, it is possible to hold a view on the broad principle, whilst recognising the implications that that principle has for the individual athletes.

It’s easy for us with first world lifestyles to high handedly say ‘of course I’d pack it in’ (and I expect, given mbomas background, go and took the fields for less than subsistence wages) But is that really the decision each of us would make - or realistically should be expected to make - in exactly the same situation (Mboma is 19 btw)? Personally I don’t think we should be so quick to judge

as I say, I think, here, we can be clear on the principle of the thing, whilst acknowledging the nuance involved in the individual athletes’ moral decisions

Then I had to ask myself why I would have lower moral expectations of these athletes than I did of myself.

I know. When that has been pointed out on this thread, we hear crickets. It is really like people don't understand that just like female athletes have to sometimes make hard decisions about whether to continue to compete or not due to discovering something to do with their health, so to do these males. If they genuinely didn't know, it is a whole other story. And this is not to say no one has sympathy or empathy for them.

However, their needs do not come before female athletes.

And if they are not respectful enough to decide to compete in the male category, then it is not about the competing, it is about the winning. And they, and everyone, need to acknowledge that.

Why does society infantilise these males by removing their responsibility to be fair in competition?

I used to feel sorry for Semenya, et al. Then, one day, instead of thinking about how hard it was for them, I asked myself what I would do in Semenya's position. Without a second of hesitation, I knew that I would refuse to compete. Then I had to ask myself why I would have lower moral expectations of these athletes than I did of myself.

I do wonder, if these athletes were more competitive in the men's races whether they would suddenly stop identifying as women and race with the men?

Why is it only this particular group.of athletes we are expected to 'be kind' to by allowing them to compete in the wrong category? Sport isn't kind. Tens of thousands of teenagers have their hopes of competing internationally denied every year due to circumstances outwith their control. Dreams they will have dedicated their life to. For most they simply won't be good enough, some will be injured, some will have inadequate finance or family support, some may have to take on unexpected caring roles, for some it will be civil unrest. For girls we can also add menstrual difficulties, pregnancy, marriage, cultural demands, prioritising boys for family support and finance. For some girls it will be because a boy has taken their place on the team. Why do certain poster say 'but isn't it sad for that boy?' and ignore all the rest? Why should they be exempt from disappointment?

Dooderino

Yes Dooderino. The logical conclusion of understanding that these males race to win despite knowing full well they have a pubertal advantage (assuming they have been allowed to have this information and understand it) is that they simply don’t have respect for female athletes.

The constant referral to how these males were brought up has the effect of infantilising them. It absolves them of making a decision to continue when they know they are males.

When you start to realise this, you cannot unsee it. Caster Semenya absolutely knows they are male. Caster Semenya knows if they drop their testosterone levels, they lose to talented female athletes. Even though I have sympathy for Semenya, I feel they have been used by others, I don’t have that much anymore. Not when I realise they know. Semenya knows.

And is fighting lengthy court battles to be allowed to continue.

I feel like I am in an alternate universe even discussing this subject and the fact that it is actually happening. Of course, the obligatory 'I have no judgement in what you in your life as long as no one gets hurt' - the question I have is how the hell can you stand on a podium or collect a medal when you know you've won because of a fundamental physical advantage. Again, there are exceptions for different sports that aren't fundamentally reliant on physicality.

It is totally unfair for women and girls that have put a lot of work and dedication into something to be beaten in that way.

I feel like I am going crazy - does no one ever ask the question why this is happening? We are hell bent on wanting to know about a wide variety of scientific and biological subjects, but this is just 'the way it is'. How can a man know he is a woman if a woman doesn't know what it is to be a woman, because she is one - if that even makes sense.

I Re-iterate - Everyone and anyone has the right to do exactly what they feel is right for them - I hold no judgement in any way(as long as no one is abused, hurt etc..)

apologies for the rant...........!!

Second attempt -

Very interesting and informative thread, thanks to all.

My inner pedant won't allow me to let this reference to Monty Python pass uncorrected. The Tarzan sketch is from Beyond The Fringe - the peerless Peter Cook and Dudley Moore.

I feel sorry for Mboma's history, very sad.
But that empathy doesn't extend to him competing against women when they know that they are DSD XY and so prohibited in running in other races - it is not as if they aren't aware they have a huge advantage. So they know that they are cheating.