Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

@Didimum

I don’t think the latter should trump the former. You’ll see in my earlier reply that I said neither one should automatically trump the other.

But where there is a direct conflict, surely you have an opinion about which should trump the other if it came down to it?

any more than taking taurine supplements makes you into a bull

It’s these silly disingenuous comments that makes people want to disengage. Obviously a human can’t be a bull. But a human can be a man or a woman. You can change some sex characteristics. Hormones can induce secondary sex characteristics and alter some primary (in f2m) and surgery can create a reasonable facsimile.

what “purposes?”

For purposes like how people are treated socially, pronouns, how people are addressed, tittles (Mr or Ms), how people are perceived, what spaces people use, being able to get married as a man or a woman, what law applies if they experience sex discrimination, whether they can adopt children as a man or woman.

In the case of shop changing rooms the EHRC have clarified that separate cubicles provides enough privacy to include trans women.

@Fieldofgreycorn

Obviously a male who is not transsexual and has not transitioned should not be in a female space).

How is that going to be policed?

If that statement above formed the basis of your policy at a facility, for example. How do women know which have transitioned or not and therefore which you believe should, on sight, be welcomed by women into a single sex space without complaint and which we should report to the facility as using it against policy?

I don’t think the latter should trump the former. You’ll see in my earlier reply that I said neither one should automatically trump the other.

I agree with you.

I would argue whether it is the religion itself which is eroding the freedom - not the facility that puts a policy in place that is at odds with the requirements of that religion and not the transwoman whose wishes are at odds with the requirements of that religion.

A religion is a set of beliefs that informs perceived requirements for followers of those beliefs.

To think that a man can become a woman and therefore needs access to womens facilities is also a belief that informs perceived requirements for followers of those beliefs.

What does the latter trump the former?

If you are referring to the conversation between me and @CatsAreCrackers, we (or at least I) was referring to Muslim women who uphold that requirement of their religion - that is a minority in this country.

Obviously a male who is not transsexual and has not transitioned should not be in a female space).

TW are male so are men so why should 1 subset of males be allowed in female spaces and not the other?

Thank you for replying. I am an atheist, so would agree that perhaps it is the religion that is the problem. But that's not the point is it? People have their religion as part of who they are, so it is entirely irrelevant to use the argument that maybe we need to sort out religion, that is clearly impossible. They feel god in their heart, (it doesn't matter whether non-believers feel that is right or wrong, that is nobodies business but theirs) why should that make their feelings less worthy of a man who feels they are a woman in their hearts?

And of course I understand you personally don't have the answer, but unfortunately, before womens' spaces are arbitrarily opened up to men, these questions must be answered so there is a clear and all-encompassing answer so that ALL parties, minorities and others know what the "rules" are and can make informed choices. And until there are clear rules, no woman should be forced to "be kind" against their beliefs, religious or just personal.

Can we just have a quick sense check about the rights of minorities?

Women are subject to disadvantage in a patriarchal world, yes.
Women are vulnerable to abuse from physically stronger and more aggressive men.
Women are roughly 50% of the population, and have full rights.

Women are not a minority, and the preference of the vast majority of 50% of the population for a situation that gives them safety and security is not to be dismissed to pander to a tiny minority.

I understand the fear and nervousness - but so many of you are being unkind.

I am being very kind - TO WOMEN AND GIRLS - they are my priority, not men however they identify. It's not fear and nervousness, don't be so bloody patronising, it's simple, basic, consideration for women and girls, not treating them as second class unworthy citizens.

And this is where it all falls apart because of your finale line.

It is now accepted that you do not have to present as the gender, take any hormones or have any surgery to be a Transperson.

So how do we know whether the man in the changing rooms is a woman?

Obviously a male who is not transsexual and has not transitioned should not be in a female space).

How do I tell the difference between them and a male who identifies as a woman

Enough to be considered that sex for many purposes but obviously not all.

what “purposes?” 🧐

This is a ridiculous thing to say. Taking exogenous estrogen doesn’t make you into a woman any more than taking taurine supplements makes you into a bull.

That’s why I said ‘rights or wishes’. I understand what a legal right is.

Again, you are being dishonest here. A male, however they “identify” has no right to be in a female-only space.

If you’re going to ban a trans woman from using a female changing room you need to have a policy and makes that really explicit. The law is clear that the exception is to exclude eg. you can legally exclude a transsexual from certain counselling groups. The law includes, the exception is to exclude. If you’re going to exclude that would need to be very clearly communicated.

It’s also not yours or anyone else’s job to police what sex people are. (Unless someone is taking the p. Obviously a male who is not transsexual and has not transitioned should not be in a female space).

And you are perfectly entitled to stand up to that.

So if you were looking for a surrogate, would you ask a TW?

Genuine question, please answer.

It’s not a genuine question. I think we’ve established you can't change reproductive sex. But you can change some sex characteristics. Enough to be considered that sex for many purposes but obviously not all.

No worries, I can tell you’re being sincere in your response. I agree it is a very important intersection to consider, especially for facilities that commonly cater to both minorities regularly in real practice, not just in theory. I’m afraid I don’t have an all-encompassing answer to that at this point in time. In regard to ‘eroding their freedoms’, I would argue whether it is the religion itself which is eroding the freedom - not the facility that puts a policy in place that is at odds with the requirements of that religion and not the transwoman whose wishes are at odds with the requirements of that religion.

I understand the fear and nervousness - but so many of you are being unkind. Encountering trans women in real life might still be a new or uncommon experience for you. You're taken aback. You've reacted in fear. You're mentally checking your safe and have sufficient control.

Wow. Patronising much. I have met a range of men who identify as women (or queer, or 'trans'). Some I quite like. I still would not want to share an intimate space with them though because they have, or have had pensises and still have XY chromosomes. Others I have found actually quite scary - and I avoid sharing even a mixed room with them, clothed and in broad daylight. It's the same with men more generally - and this is the main point - I don't want intimate spaces where I am naked and vulnerable opened up to men - and in the case of self ID any man can identify as a woman.

But @Didimum my boundaries are supported by law and by social convention. Some TRAs are trying to remove my rights to those boundaries and I'm supposed to support that because women are supposed to be nice y to I men and let them have their way. No. The answer is No. if you want a space away from men that fundraiser and campaign for a third space but you can't have mine.

What space does a woman use if her experience of sexual violence means she is triggered and frightened by seeing a penis so cannot risk that happening?

What space does a Muslim woman use if her religion dictates that she cannot be in any space where she may see the penis of an adult she is not married to so cannot risk that happening?

What space does an elderly woman use if she is not comfortable being in the presence of a penis so cannot risk that happening?

By your own logic, the female sexual assault survivor, Muslim woman and elderly woman should now not attend their classes anymore.

What's kind about that?

I also didn’t say anything wasn’t worthy of consideration, nor did I say what my priority was. One of my points (not priorities), as given a few pages ago was perception of risk, significance of increase of risk and whether discrimination (again I specified that the discrimination of trans people does not exist to some) is justified or unjustified.

The exclusion of male humans from female humans' safe spaces is justified because they statistically present a risk to women. Males who identify as women are no different from any other human males.

This is certainly true.

It is ridiculous to try to push the trope that all trans people are even respectful of women, let alone that all trans people are safe and not a risk at all.

No. There is no evidence that they are any less risk of any other male. And if people advocate for one group of males to be considered low risk when they have no proof, just a wish that it is true, then they have to admit that they are discriminating against all males and that all males should have access to female single sex spaces.

That is the point that needs to be repeated.

99% of sex crimes are committed by males. That is reason enough to exclude them from women's spaces. Transwoman offend at the same rate as all other males. Why do you think they should have an exemption?