Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

A transwomen is at a higher risk of being sexually assaultedovc.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh226/files/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html
Do you think she should be in the men's?
Or do you think we should go back to segregation days? No Irish , no blacks etc

Well if going back in time is an option I'd like to go back to the relatively recent days when a man in a women's changing room would have been arrested!

I'm sorry your mum was distressed, @PoolFloat . It was extremely inappropriate of the transwoman to use a female changing room where women get undressed in communal spaces.

FPFW has resources to help with drafting a letter. I hope the issue is resolvedfor her and her friends.

No, it really isn’t. You can no more invent your own meaning for female than you get to have your own definition of France. Words have meanings, I know your sort have a desperate need to try to obfuscate what female means to get what you want, but no-one else gets to go along with it.

Also, let’s be honest here, you and I both know that you can’t give any coherent definition if your version of the word but that mine, which is the accepted common and scientific one, can be defined in a single sentence.

@Fieldofgreycorn I would be very grateful if you could please provide a clear definition of a 'genuine' transwoman that you're working from (quotes to refer to you posting that).

I would also be grateful for some definitive distinctions between 'genuine' transwomen, and those that are not 'genuine', but seem to currently be able to take advantage of unclear definitions (in UK) or achieved legal primacy of gender identity over sex (in US).

Tw can go in the cubicles in the males facilities. Problem solved.

The thing is, anyone opposing women keeping single spaces can have any opinion they like.

But that doesn’t mean that you get to change it, without discussion, without bothering to look up the evidence, without looking at why the equality act includes single sex privacy and dignity in the first place. You don’t get to call other women transphobic just for wanting to keep privacy and dignity for their own sex as has been socially agreed for hundreds of years.

You don’t get to just decide for other women. It’s not your choice to make.

If you feel very strongly that trans women need a space other than male single sex spaces, then go and help them create an alternative.

Also in changing rooms of public facilities I don’t think it’s reasonable to exclude post op people.

And how do you know they are post op? Do you expect them to declare that to all and sundry? Wait until they are undressed and then the women in there have the option to have them removed if they are not? Bit late then isn't it?

Pre or post op is irrelevant, transwomen are not women and can be legally excluded from all spaces and services for women, GRC holders or not and the GRC does not require surgery by the way in case you were labouring under the impression that it does.

@Didimum I've quoted your specific reply to a specific boundary, not other examples discussed.

You're arguing that a female's right to not be exposed to male gaze and/or a penis will not always be upheld? Is that correct?

Not other examples, this specific boundary please

Saying that transwomen should be allowed into women's spaces is very transphobic. You are allowing a subset of genders to have their own facilities (mens and womens) but all other genders have nowhere to go. Where should aliusgender people go, or those who are egogender, healgender, cakegender, exgender etc? You are completely invalidating their gender. Even if you don't believe these genders are valid, what about non binary people?

Having spaces separated by sex is the only fair way. That way males of any gender can use the mens and females of any gender can use the womens spaces. Nobody is making any assumptions about any individual's gender and it is inclusive to everybody.

@Fieldofgreycorn

Also in changing rooms of public facilities I don’t think it’s reasonable to exclude post op people.

How do we know which members of the public are post op people and which aren't?

How is it possible to police, on an individual basis at the time they wish to enter single sex female only changing rooms of public facilities, whether someone fits that criteria (the criteria being that they are post op) and can therefore use those facilities?

@Fieldofgreycorn

I can’t see why a facility would be able to provide only private cubicles for everyone except trans people. I should think in that situation they would have to find a way to include them. Also in changing rooms of public facilities I don’t think it’s reasonable to exclude post op people.

That isn't what I meant in my example.

I'll be clearer.

In many single sex changing rooms, there are 3-4 cubicles plus lots of communal space. They don't provide cubicles for 'everyone except trans people'. They don't provide enough cubicles for everyone, just a few. And it's first come first served if you want one.

So a few women get the cubicles at the time they need them, while most women (including girls) change in the communal area. Which most are happy with as it's a single sex female only changing room.

I'm not saying trans women should be excluded from the private cubicles within a changing room, I'm saying they should be excluded from a changing room that doesn't have enough private cubicles for every person to use.

Because the reality is that unless 10/20+ women and girls all queue up in their towels to wait for the few private cubicles within the communal changing room, they will need to change in the presence of a trans woman should a trans woman enter.

Likewise, they will also need to see a person with a penis changing which as stated previously would mean excluding women who for reasons of sexual trauma triggers, religious beliefs etc as they couldn't risk being in a changing room with a person with a penis.

I'm assuming you don't think that's reasonable? Hopefully not anyway.

So in single sex women only facilities that currently have communal changing, where budget means that individual cubicles cannot be installed, do you agree that it's not possible to include trans women in those spaces?

I agree that the facility can exclude trans women if that’s what they want to do.

And in single sex women only faculties that currently have predominantly communal changing and only a few private cubicles, which means that the vast majority of women have to change in the communal area, it's also not possible to include trans women in those spaces?

I can’t see why a facility would be able to provide only private cubicles for everyone except trans people. I should think in that situation they would have to find a way to include them. Also in changing rooms of public facilities I don’t think it’s reasonable to exclude post op people.

I didn’t say it wasn’t long-existing, just that boundaries, however long existing, aren’t necessarily going to be upheld in all the examples I gave.

But I guess we do not need that boundary anymore, only the religious and conservatives would defend it, any 'progressive' woman nowadays is expected to feel happy about visually obvious males seeing them naked, or being naked in the same space as a naked person with a penis, otherwise they are transphobic bigots.

Gotcha, thanks! Will sign up for re-education provided by Stonewall asap, I'm sure I'm just an ignorant prude, as I don't actually think I'm a transphobic bigot

I do, thank you. Not subscribing to your opinions isn’t ‘non understanding’; it is a misalignment of opinions.

Just to be clear, you do understand that the men that abused you can now declare themselves a woman and access almost all facilities for women.
They don't need to change anything about themselves, have no diagnosis of anything, no hormones, no surgery, not even changing their clothes, none of it. So now they would have access to any woman that was unlucky enough to be there at the same time.
How do you not see what the outcome of that could be?
Forget being kind and looking the other way, this is already happening and people like you are so caught up in not seeing the downsides that males can abuse your goodwill indiscriminately.
Because honestly, how do you prove that someone who looks just like a generic male really feels like they're a woman? And even if they legitimately think they're a woman, why does everyone else have to act as if that's true?

Fascinating Didimum, that to:
'I do not want to see a naked male who is not my husband and I do not want a naked male who is not my husband to see me' your reply is:
'You are entitled to whatever boundary you like. That doesn’t mean that your boundary has to be enshrined in law, social contracts, or the policies of private or public organisations.'

This boundary has existed throughout human history, with men expanding considerable amount of energy to break it down - story of Susanna and the Elders is quite old

Not to mention that Taurine isn’t actually specific to only bulls.

No, you clearly don’t. You don’t even seem to understand what male and female means.

I don’t have an opinion on that specific conflict at this time. Empathy is not finite.

It was communicated clearly, both to the male in this situation and the women.

He chose to then invade the female-only space.

And please “police” what someone’s sex is? Sex is not a question of opinion.

No, not even close to being enough to being treated as the opposite sex.

@Whitehorsegirl I truly don’t get why you would back men in women’s single spaces without doing your due diligence and actually finding out if this is a problem. Due diligence being, listening to other women (like on this thread) who are saying it’s a problem for them. Legitimate lived experience. And evidence and research. We all have google. I truly don’t get why you would be a bit lazy to be honest to just back a big change of women’s boundaries without properly looking at what that actually means for other women other than yourself.

Is this why there are so many trans ‘allies’. Because you don’t want to look at both actual facts (not just propoganda on twitter) or listen to other women?

I really truly don’t get it. If a big change such a men being allowed into women’s single spaces is going to happen, then the onus is on anyone saying that should happen to listen to any concerns and look at the evidence, and prove that there will be zero harm to others. Not to just go ahead without doing of this work.

We do seem to treat - not just elders - anyone over 50 as a nuisance these days. You become invisible as a woman when you hit your 40s.

@Fieldofgreycorn

In the case of shop changing rooms the EHRC have clarified that separate cubicles provides enough privacy to include trans women.

So in single sex women only facilities that currently have communal changing, where budget means that individual cubicles cannot be installed, do you agree that it's not possible to include trans women in those spaces?

And in single sex women only faculties that currently have predominantly communal changing and only a few private cubicles, which means that the vast majority of women have to change in the communal area, it's also not possible to include trans women in those spaces?