Page 6 | Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

PoolFloat · 2022-08-05T13:57:27+00:00

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand). The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s. The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so. My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it. Can anyone help please?

Original poster

PoolFloat · 07/08/2022 20:25

I had a bit of a longer conversation with my mum today. This is honestly not drip feeding but our conversations have been very fractured as, like I said, she's a carer for my dad who is cognitively fine but is dying, so we're talking in another room but are frequently interrupted.

Layout of the changing room from the pool end is:
1 loo
3 showers
Widens out slightly into changing area:
Two benches in middle, on one wall two sinks, hair dryer, swimsuit spinner thing, opposite wall another bench with hooks
Then lockers on that same wall
Opposite are the 4 changing cubicles.

So yes, this person got out of the pool between an adult swim session and an aqua aerobics class specifically to walk past the main changing area purely to put their hat in a locker. There is no reason for him to have done that.

Also, when she saw him in a towel in the changing room a few weeks' ago, he got out of the pool, walked past the showers, through the changing area to the cubicles, removed his swimsuit in a cubicle, and came back through the changing area wrapped in a towel to go to the showers. After the shower, he walked through the changing area again in a towel.

No one fucking does that. If you're going to take a shower, you grab your towel and you take your suit off in the shower.

Now I think he's totally getting off on this.

There are 22 women in my mum's class apparently. So many that they are allowed to use the men's pool changing rooms in the mornings as they are all women. So there are some women using the men's changing rooms. This person chooses to use the women's ones.

I am angrier and angrier. How dare he intimidate a load of old women. Fucking creep.

OP posts:

KittenKong · 07/08/2022 19:44

I’m fast approaching pissedoffwiththisutterhogwashgender.

StillHappy · 07/08/2022 19:28

Nellodee · 07/08/2022 17:46

I agree with both Blister and kittenkong. I just can't understand the logic of grouping people by gender. It seems to me that the only two logical positions are unisex, or separate by sex. Female and open seems reasonable, too, I suppose. But I can't for the life of me see any point in segregating by gender.

Among the other good reasons not to segregate by gender is the several hundred different ones that exist and the rate of appearance of new ones.

We could group them together, but how? Does cakegenger go with exogender?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/08/2022 19:26

And some people may have very strong opinions about the importance of single sex spaces because of the trans people that they know.

This.

KittenKong · 07/08/2022 18:39

If you get to 80 and can’t correctly sex a person, well… but seriously? Trying to gaslight a great granny into believing that she is wrong for identifying what has been sexed as male since humans first roamed the earth - and is ‘in fact’ a woman? That’s just rotten. Have a word with yourself.

Luredbyapomegranate · 07/08/2022 18:29

Noonecaresifyounamechange · 05/08/2022 15:19

I think the reasons you’re finding it hard to word is because you’re wrong. The “person” is a women, who has ever right to be there.

Out of curiosity, how do you know she is trans?

Does her being trans make her more of a threat than any other women? Would a lesbian, for example, be treated with the same assumptions?

@Noonecaresifyounamechange

Give over. The OP’s mum knows this is a trans woman because she is male bodied. The vast majority of women wouldn’t want a man / trans woman with a male body in their changing room.

Women have a right to feel safe. Having a male body around when you are changing would make many women feel either unsafe and uncomfortable.

Yay for you telling an 80 year old woman how she should feel in a changing room. Or any woman or girl.

Just explain it very factually OP. It may well be the woman in question couldn’t use the changing area she’s normally allocated, but in which case the gym needs to find her somewhere else

LK1972 · 07/08/2022 18:10

Nellodee · 07/08/2022 17:46

I agree with both Blister and kittenkong. I just can't understand the logic of grouping people by gender. It seems to me that the only two logical positions are unisex, or separate by sex. Female and open seems reasonable, too, I suppose. But I can't for the life of me see any point in segregating by gender.

It doesn't happen anyway, don't see any separate facilities for 'genderfuck' and 'genderqueer' people, do you? Yet surely they are a completely separate gender?

The trend is just throw formerly women's facilities open to all those wonderful and exciting new 'genders', predictably.

Nellodee · 07/08/2022 17:46

I agree with both Blister and kittenkong. I just can't understand the logic of grouping people by gender. It seems to me that the only two logical positions are unisex, or separate by sex. Female and open seems reasonable, too, I suppose. But I can't for the life of me see any point in segregating by gender.

KittenKong · 07/08/2022 17:38

Segregate by birth sign then. Those pesky Aquarians…

Blister · 07/08/2022 17:36

Nellodee · 07/08/2022 17:21

What is the point of segregating anything at all by gender?

There's no point in segregating anything by the absolute work of fiction social construct called gender.
Segregating things by sex however provides a boundary when vulnerability may manifest especially in the form of nudity. It is also for being able to measure things which affect a sex class, or provide services that affect the sex classes differently.

Nellodee · 07/08/2022 17:21

What is the point of segregating anything at all by gender?

StillHappy · 07/08/2022 16:53

PoolFloat · 07/08/2022 16:44

Thanks everyone for the help. I've drafted a letter for my mum. She also found the EHRC guidance herself so that's been really useful. It's so helpful to be able to quote that - without that it would have been much harder.

I took your advice and kept it very simple @SolasAnla - just said that it was perfectly legal for them to exclude this person as a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim - the safety, privacy and dignity of their female members.

Good luck, I hope it gets the right response.

Original poster

PoolFloat · 07/08/2022 16:44

Thanks everyone for the help. I've drafted a letter for my mum. She also found the EHRC guidance herself so that's been really useful. It's so helpful to be able to quote that - without that it would have been much harder.

I took your advice and kept it very simple @SolasAnla - just said that it was perfectly legal for them to exclude this person as a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim - the safety, privacy and dignity of their female members.

OP posts:

Terfydactyl · 07/08/2022 16:25

Didimum · 07/08/2022 13:24

@Fieldofgreycorn is allowed to have an opinion that neither 100% aligns with TRAs or gender critical.

Absolutely he is, and the 95%of women who for reasons of dignity, privacy, religion and the rest are allowed to have the opinion that men can never be women and womens spaces must be left alone to remain women only spaces.

Terfydactyl · 07/08/2022 16:16

Also in changing rooms of public facilities I don’t think it’s reasonable to exclude post op people

And I know you know that's transphobic af. You do know we cannot police that. So we are left with any man at any time of his choosing can enter previously women only spaces.

This whole thing goes around in bloody circles.

Where the hell is bunbury when one needs her

KittenKong · 07/08/2022 16:05

These folk have mums surely? Since there seem to be a reasonable large number of older male borns discovering their inner sportswoman, don’t they think ‘hang on, I don’t want my mammy freaked out by a naked penis in the changing room’?

self centred or what?

CherryBlossomAutumn · 07/08/2022 16:03

Anyone can have an opinion. Opinions are cheap. Opinions can be harmful.

Just saying that you are ‘entitled to your opinion’ is a bit of an easy way of avoiding a debate. And avoidance of trying to solve a problem, which this thread is about.

In case any TRA have forgotten.

An older woman who is trying to keep herself fit, healthy and social by going swimming, is feeling distressed over her privacy and dignity boundaries being eroded with a male in her female changing rooms.

Anyone anti-helping this woman? Should she just be ignored? No amount of ‘just my opinion’ obscures that you are happy to ignore her needs in this instance.

QuebecBagnet · 07/08/2022 15:56

ChristinePerfect · 07/08/2022 15:26

Maybe we don't need a third space, two spaces could be sufficient.
One space is for females only, that's it.
The second space is for everyone else, transmen, transwomen, gender-fluid, non-binary, multi-gender, people who don't care, people who picked this space because it's got the shortest queue, and males.

Would that suit everyone?

Sadly it wouldn’t suit everyone. Because it wouldn’t give some individuals the validation they crave.

QuebecBagnet · 07/08/2022 15:54

User15 · 07/08/2022 10:43

I understand the fear and nervousness - but so many of you are being unkind. Encountering trans women in real life might still be a new or uncommon experience for you. You're taken aback. You've reacted in fear. You're mentally checking your safe and have sufficient control.

It's good you've come on here to talk about it, and think through the situation rather than react unkindly towards a person going about their daily lives.

A trans woman can use women's spaces.

A trans man can use men's spaces.

Everyone can use a unisex changing village (separate cubicles).

In time you'll see there's nothing to fear. They're just people living their life consciously. Be kind. Support safe spaces for the transgender community by sharing the gendered spacing.

Don't be disrespectful to transgender people.

Maybe the trans community should be kind and support safe spaces for women? Just a thought. 🤷‍♀️ Why do you expect women to shut up and pt up with something which has been proven to make them less safe.? Allowing people with penises into women’s spaces is less safe, there are documented attacks. What about the transwoman who was allowed in a female prison and raped women?

LK1972 · 07/08/2022 15:36

ChristinePerfect · 07/08/2022 15:26

Maybe we don't need a third space, two spaces could be sufficient.
One space is for females only, that's it.
The second space is for everyone else, transmen, transwomen, gender-fluid, non-binary, multi-gender, people who don't care, people who picked this space because it's got the shortest queue, and males.

Would that suit everyone?

This second space can be communal or private cubicles only, up to provider/all these users' preferences, via government or user consultation if necessary

Meanwhile, the seeming majority of women who don't want to strip naked with males will have a safe and private provision, with other women (as has always perfectly fine for a large majority of women).

The women who don't care about it can change in the men's (although you'll find a majority of men don't actually want naked women in their changing rooms either!), but that's not my business, so I'll butt out at the arrangements people will come up with.

Great solution I reckon!

StillHappy · 07/08/2022 15:29

ChristinePerfect · 07/08/2022 15:26

Maybe we don't need a third space, two spaces could be sufficient.
One space is for females only, that's it.
The second space is for everyone else, transmen, transwomen, gender-fluid, non-binary, multi-gender, people who don't care, people who picked this space because it's got the shortest queue, and males.

Would that suit everyone?

It would suit everyone except men who want to use the female facilities for reasons of voyeurism, intimidation or a few paraphilias.

If trans activism was really about the safety and dignity of trans people then it’d be a great idea. That it is seen as unacceptable suggests something else going on.

ChristinePerfect · 07/08/2022 15:26

Maybe we don't need a third space, two spaces could be sufficient.
One space is for females only, that's it.
The second space is for everyone else, transmen, transwomen, gender-fluid, non-binary, multi-gender, people who don't care, people who picked this space because it's got the shortest queue, and males.

Would that suit everyone?

LK1972 · 07/08/2022 15:14

@Fieldofgreycorn 'If it’s a facility or service with private cubicles then trans people can be included as the sex they’re transitioning/ transitioned to. If it’s a communal area where genitalia are visible then it should be based' on their sex at birth, and safe private mixed-sex accommodation provided for those unable to use these.

That is EHRC advice, not what you're suggesting. For obvious reasons. Happy to expand if you don't find them obvious.

Zerogravity · 07/08/2022 14:59

All the man has to do is say that he identifies as a woman. He doesn't actually have to genuinely feel that way, he just has to be willing to use it as his excuse for being somewhere he shouldn't be.
This. I genuinely don't understand how anyone cannot understand that this is the reality nowadays. The genie is out of the bottle. It is not possible to exclude men and include genuine trans women (whatever that's supposed to mean). If this is what you are advocating then you are actually asking for mixed sex spaces - so all those men you mentioned can now act with impunity away from the beady eye of the lifeguard. This is not safe or dignified for women and especially girls.

SantaCarlaCalifornia · 07/08/2022 14:50

Whitehorsegirl · 07/08/2022 14:12

''@CherryBlossomAutumn
@Whitehorsegirl I truly don’t get why you would back men in women’s single spaces without doing your due diligence and actually finding out if this is a problem. Due diligence being, listening to other women (like on this thread) who are saying it’s a problem for them. Legitimate lived experience. And evidence and research.''

I am a woman and I have used various swimming pools in London for the past 20 years. I usually swim once a week at list. The pool I am at as mentioned as mixed changing rooms (it is a former Olympics venue) and I have used it for 12 years.

Issues I have had with trans women while at the pool: 0
Issues I have with men wile at various pools: all the time...

Some of the behaviour by men have included:

countless instances of aggressive behaviour in the lanes while swimming. Usually followed by verbal abuse when asked to stop invading my space/barging into me. Male life guards failing to intervene to stop the harassment although they had seen/heard it
one man purposely swimming close/rubbing himself against female swimmers, including me. When I reported this to the male life guard he said ''yes I have noticed'' to which I said ''why haven't you done anything then?''. Only then did he intervened and asked the man to leave...
unwanted comments/attempt to start conversation when I did not want to be disturbed
being stared out by men when walking around the pool minding my business
I have also seen a man deciding to suddenly dive into the pool (next to a big ''no diving allowed sign'') and almost crashing into a middle-aged woman as he entered the water then continuing as if nothing had happened while she had to get out of the pool and report him to the life guard.

I have to avoid the faster lanes to try to stay away from these idiots and only the pool at quieter times now.

This is my evidence: trans women are not a problem for me and they have never been.

The big difference is that you see trans women as men. To me they are not. You see them as a threat. Again to me they are not.

I am not a young woman anymore and I have seen a lot in my life. None of the violence against me has come from a trans woman. If anything what I have seen is aggression from men against trans people.

I do think though that a good way to solve this is for pools to be told they must have enough private cubicles so that people can have always have their privacy to change.

How did you know they were men and not transwomen though, did you ask them? What gave it away?

Your experiences can't be extrapolated to everyone. For example, I've never been raped, so in my experience, it doesn't happen. Does that sound right to you?
Or maybe it's about more than just you?