Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

Because a true transwoman is no more a threat than any other woman! That’s the whole point.

That's unlikely to be true as statistically biological males are more of a threat to women than other females are. What is the definition of a "true transwoman" and why would identifying as a woman make a male person have a different risk profile to other males?

Let us know how the pool responds to your mum's letter, OP!

I repeat, please provide the evidence that clearly convinced you of this.

Because we have UK statistics that show there is no decrease in risk for transitioned males compared to all other males.

You seem to be asking for women to lower their boundaries based on your attempts to shame and telling people to 'be kind'. Based on no evidence at all.

Is there any reason to believe that transitioned males are not just as high risk as all other males? Have you found some convincing stats and studies? What has convinced you?

You can say ‘it’s not my problem’ but unfortunately it is because currently all humans matter.

Mmmm... do you go onto other forums and say this?

And how do we tell a true trans woman from a fake one?

Why do people act like transwomen aren’t a threat?

Because a true transwoman is no more a threat than any other woman! That’s the whole point.

Sarah Everard's killing briefly made more public the fact that males who commit indecent exposure can be liable to escalate the seriousness of their sex crimes.

Even liberal feminist TRA supporters were talking about this and the fact Wayne Couzens' previous incidents of indecent exposure had gone unchallenged.

I don't understand why its suddenly not indecent exposure any more when the male in question has said special words. It is dangerous for absolutely everyone if we are not allowed to recognise male pattern abusive behaviour and violence simply because the male in question says they are trans.

This isn't saying trans people are abusive. It is saying males can be abusive. Gender ID is irrelevant to that, but current TRA thinking allows a huge safeguarding loophole if we confer special status.

TRAs need to be more confident in these scenarios. The abusive male needs denouncing. Assert that a genuine transwoman wouldn't do that (this is true of the transwomen I've known).

Catholic Church, Saville, Met Police... We are supposed to be learning from the past, not finding new areas for abusive males to exploit.

I can understand the issue of ‘is it really a transwoman? Or just a creepy man?’ but I’m sorry, a lot of posts on here go much further and seem to hate transwomen for themselves and act like they are being disgusting and creepy. Even if you think it’s a mental disorder you must know that people have felt ‘trapped in the wrong body’ since history began, so it’s not some new phenomena. You just have to look at research to see it’s a real thing.

You can say ‘it’s not my problem’ but unfortunately it is because currently all humans matter.

Spot on as usual artichokes.
I would love some of the usual suspects to come and dispute your points but we all know that won't happen.

Why do women think that's trans women pose no threat whatsoever to women?

The pronouns and calling these biologically male people "women" act as a smokescreen. Trying imagining it as how you would feel if it were any other male person helps to dispel this.

No-one denies the existence of trans persons.
No-one wishes them ill will.
But pretending that TW are the same as women gets nobody anywhere.
Pretending that it doesn't throw up a whole load of issues such as safeguarding and fairness gets nobody anywhere.

This in spades.

And following the whole raft of nonsensical special pleading which always inevitably includes:

• you wont even know they're male
• well you shouldn't have been looking anyway and then you wouldn't have been upset by her penis and testicles on display
• sex segregation is stupid and everyone should stop being prudes and be fine with male people's equipment on display
• NAMALT
• That never happens
• If it does, you can call the police and report it so no problem (this only applies to females: a male person feeling unsafe in a space is a huge deal that should not be tolerated at all)
• Reframe your trauma (but only females should do this, TW get a totally free pass and their feelings should be supported and respected at all times - no this absolutely does not prove that no one TW included believe TWAW cos.... reasons.....)
• females excluded from mixed sex spaces are stupy stupy dum dums and should abandon their religions/get over their disabilities/overcome their trauma immediately solely so that male people can do exactly what they wish without having to face that there are unacceptable consequences on others (again spot the binary sex based thinking underpinning this)

This is why women are now getting totally pissed off and the answer is an increasingly blunt, flat no . We tried. We explored the possibilities. We found that we were going to be treated like absolute shit in very misogynist ways we are oh so bloody familiar with. And at this point, you can pull the other one, it's got bells on. No.

Why do women think that's trans women pose no threat whatsoever to women?

They are being 'kind'. The messaging has been persistent and very clear for a couple of decades now. From bumper stickers to TV shows, to lectures, to MPs and FB groups.

There is absolutely no evidence that shows transitioned males are less of a risk than the general male population. Yet, women are being shamed into accepting lowered boundaries because a group of people think it is wise and thoughtful to make decisions that put females in these situations ahead of any evidence at all.

Oh. And of course, by transitioned male crimes being recorded AND reported as female crimes, it takes women who are dedicated to protecting women to ferret out the data to show the reality.

But, I am really surprised that people cannot see any harm in a 40 something male walking through a female communal changing room to put their swim cap into a locker. It is another version of 'it is only one' or 'it only happened once'.

It is handwaving away an action that has been shown to be just another in a growing history of actions.

Why do women think that's trans women pose no threat whatsoever to women? Men are the most violent sex. They don't suddenly lose that when they become trans. There are good men and bad men. Good trans people and bad trans people. They don't suddenly become saints because they have decided to live as a woman. They been socialised as men.

Welcome. This is how I got here too. Hope the journey wasn't too distressing.

I'd go further to say, some are actively encouraging that subtle sentiment of risk analysis to be conflated with transphobia.

And as much as I'm alright with mixed sex spaces, it is not my place to give that away for all women, especially women in more vulnerable positions than myself.

Once seen, it becomes very difficult to unsee...

I'm tempted to agree. And that's as someone who thinks TRAs are the lowest of the low, who have poisoned the well for trans folk who just want to live a normal l8fe without drama.

I presume there is a male changing room. If that's the case, then they should have used that one. Both you and your mother is absolutely right to be uncomfortable with this and to raise this with the staff.

Whether they're at risk or not, the women deserve a place to change away from male bodies.

For anyone new to these boards, some useful resources for information about predatory males are Women are Human and This Never happens. Not sure I am allowed to link here as certain people would rather we didn’t know about them

@Dreamwhisper

Even one woman attacked in a supposedly safe, male free place by a man identifying as a woman is one too many.

I really respect and appreciate you taking on board what other posters have said and seeing this core issue and that it's not one that comes from a place of bigotry.

Thank you for listening to people. I genuinely mean that.

@Dreamwhisper Thank you, genuinely, good and brave post, following your previous position.

We really did all start where you did, but have been in it longer, that's all.

Perfectly put @BoredofthisCrap7 "No-one denies the existence of trans persons.
No-one wishes them ill will.
But pretending that TW are the same as women gets nobody anywhere.
Pretending that it doesn't throw up a whole load of issues such as safeguarding and fairness gets nobody anywhere."

Pretending there is no difference is actively harmful.

TW and TM have different medical needs, if a transman attends hospital with a painful leg the doctor NEEDS to know that he is biologically female and taking testosterone as he is more likely to suffer with osteoporosis and be susceptible to a broken bone. If he has stomach or pelvic pain it could be as a result of vaginal atrophy which can cause infection/sepsis.

TW have a risk of prostate cancer which obviously wouldn't be considered if they were treated as biological women.

We need for census stats to be accurate and based on biology so that issues that start in childhood can be addressed. We need to know crime statistics by biological sex because crime patterns for male and females are very different and so are judicial decisions.

It goes on and on.

@Dreamwhisper I like your post, this is how I started off... Oh I'm fine with a TW in the changing room...but oh, wait, not everyone else is...and these concerns are from actual women, and it's their single-sex space.

It doesn't take much logic to work out that edging out a female's concerns is no good for women in general, including yourself.

It's a shame that some posters on this thread take an arrogant view that just because they are ok, so should all others be, and if they are not, screw 'em.

I couldn't speak about the safety of male changing rooms. Surely it's discomfort? This is why third 'open' spaces should be campaigned for.

Absolutely.
And I can bet that 100% of woman would have been behind this and even helped.
But Stonewall and the TRAs have scored a spectacular own-goal with their whole agenda of TWAW.
If they had said TWATW from the start, recognised that we are very different with different needs, then there would literally be no problem.
TW are NOT women.
And because we are being forced, coerced and intimidated into pretending that they are, it's natural that there was always going to be a push back.
I am willing to be that there are swathes of "old school" trans people who are ashamed of the TRA movement and want no part of it, and I'm positive that it has made their lives much much worse instead of better.

No-one denies the existence of trans persons.
No-one wishes them ill will.
But pretending that TW are the same as women gets nobody anywhere.
Pretending that it doesn't throw up a whole load of issues such as safeguarding and fairness gets nobody anywhere.

Pretending that it doesn't open up myriad loopholes in the law gets nobody anywhere.

If Stonewall had thrown their considerable weight behind gender neutral spaces for trans people in addition to existing single sex spaces, and pushed for transpeople to be accepted & respected as trans but not as having actually become the opposite sex, instead of steamrollering over women’s rights, that would have been a hell of a lot more use.

This is basically exactly how I feel most of the time and I have similar experiences with men.

I'm now concerned with how one arbitrates what is a trans woman and what is "trans enough". I fear it hurts both parties and causes women and trans women a lot of pain and anxiety. Because there exists a dichotomy that cannot be reconciled and satisfy both groups when it comes to the question of single sex spaces specifically.

In every other aspect of life, trans women should be validated, treated with dignity and recognised.

The way I'm begrudgingly starting to see it is that single sex spaces not actually being single sex hurts both parties because:

• For some women the potential for a single sex space not to actually be single sex is distressing enough.
• Allowing shared spaces on a case by case basis creates a necessity to arbitrate who is trans/passing/feminised enough to be in those spaces without other women being uncomfortable and complaining. Especially in settings like SA trauma support groups. This must be a hurtful and undignified process from trans women
• I have no doubt in the world that the vast majority of trans women pose no threat to women whatsoever. But if you allow anyone who identifies as a woman to enter single sex spaces, this can be abused. I know this is obvious but I think it is a sentiment here so often conflated with genuine transphobia that its message is lessened. It's a genuine and perplexing issue. Even one woman attacked in a supposedly safe, male free place by a man identifying as a woman is one too many.

It's a really upsetting issue because I do NOT see trans women themselves as a threat, at all. I recognise their vulnerability and how it is akin to my own. But, as above, since the risk can't be adequately removed or policed, what other option does that realistically leave? I'm not prepared though to join a chorus of voices saying trans women should use male facilities. They would not be safe there.