Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

It's not really drivel though it is the law, and while you may have no empathy toward people in that situation, frankly who cares? Plenty of people do.

Yes, some changing rooms are completely mixed. I wouldn't use those spaces. I would only use spaces which were female only, and I don't expect to have male people walking through them. This is clearly a single sex arrangement, as the MTF trans person had already been allotted a separate changing room to use.

No one said you can change sex that's why they identify as trans women.

Your personal view might be "tough shit" but it is not the view of everyone.

I think I've made my points though and some replies have been very eye opening.

They are not a woman. They are a man pretending to be a woman.

Yes an erection or such other signs of active sexual arousal is a pretty good clue that someone is doing something for sexual gratification.
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I don't "want" sexual gratification proven or disproven in any way. I'm saying if someone is conducting themselves in a manner that is non sexual then you cannot take action against them for committing a sexual offence.

I'm confused that I have to explain this. I feel like if you de-sexed and de-gendered the question and my answer it would be very very obvious.

You cannot, I concede, guarantee that no one is having a sexual thought about you. As a victim of some pretty stalkerish behaviour in my time I know that full well.

But the answer to that is not to assume that anyone doing anything in settings such as, going to the pool or beach, or to the park on a very hot day when people are likely to be scantily clad, is doing so with sexual gratification as a motive.

People would quite rightly point out that such assumptions would be extremely prejudice.

Of course there are situations, as already posted about, where someone may not be overtly getting off on something but may be leery, or acting weird, and not appropriate and most people recognise that. But the OP says nothing about such behaviour. Just a swimmer, putting their hat in a locker.

i don’t think there’s a right to single sex space

the two pools nearest to me only have mixed changing rooms - all cubicals

your school room has cubicals so it’s not actually a single sex communal space is it? The fact people just go ahead and use the space to change is neither here nor there

cubicals are provided so in theory it could be a mixed provision

I can think of another reason a trans woman would want to be in a female changing room. Because they identify as female so don't want to use the male changing rooms

Tough shit. You cannot identify as female - female is a biological sex class and a transwoman is a biological male. No-one can change sex, it's impossible.

@Dreamwhisper
Thank you for the draft by the way!

Every day life is not a place where you can demand single sex spaces in all situations precisely because it puts trans people in an impossible position

What utter drivel. Nobody is asking for them to stay on the opposite side of the road from women. But a changing room is precisely the type of areas where women SHOULD expect to have a single sex space. I don't wonder naked down the street and I don't expect to encounter random men in a WOMEN'S changing room.

The OP says there were a lot of elderly women in the class, this generation were not brought up to expose their naked bodies in front of other women, let alone strange men. I can only imagine my mother's horror and distress if this happened to her.

Quite frankly if there weren't so many mealy mouthed apologists making excuses for men who are determined to take away women's rights to single sex spaces then this wouldn't be happening. Because lets face it a lot of these are chancers who are emboldened by idiots hell bent on minimising the risks of removing women's safe spaces. It absolutely beggars belief that almost 100 years after women in the UK were given the vote we are going to have to fight for our rights again.

But why? Why would they be helpful and accommodating to the op and what do you believe they would do to be helpful and accommodating to the op?

Dear xxx, I have been attending an aqua aerobics class at your pool, and was assured that the changing rooms were operating as a single sex space, as permitted by the 2010 Equality Act in order to ensure women's safety, privacy and dignity. However, this seems not to have been enforced. Can you please reassure me that the women's changing room is indeed a single-sex space, so that I can use it with confidence and without anxiety moving forward? As you will understand, your exercise class is of enormous value to my health and wellbeing and I am very keen to keep benefiting from it.

I’m a bit confused. Apologies if it’s already been clarified but did the placing of the hat in a locker happen when the elderly ladies were all getting changed ready for their class? If so, I really feel for those poor ladies who were too intimidated to say anything at the time and are now worried about how to say anything without opening themselves up to the sort of accusations of bigotry so often seen on here.

@Dreamwhisper "Because they identify as female so don't want to use the male changing rooms"

What does "identify as female" mean?

Females don't "identify" as females, they just are females by the fact of their role in sexual reproduction of our species.

Perhaps what you mean is they have a fantasy about themselves as not wanting to be a male?

Such men are not and never will be female so you are making a very good argument for the provision of third and separate spaces for such men.

This is just emotive language though. It still doesn't change the fact that you have no evidence that this was the case.

Well no, I don't have any "evidence" of anything, I'm just reacting to someone's personal account on a talkboard.

You have failed to understand my point, because totally astonishingly you're focussing only on the feelings of the male present and couldn't give two shits how the elderly women felt.

It's not just about why this male person did it, it's that women felt violated by it. And males who use women's spaces knowing that it makes women uncomfortable and scared are not nice. It's not what decent males do, they respect women's privacy and dignity.

This person had another space to change according to OP. They chose to enter a female only space.

nypost.com/2022/01/27/teammates-are-uneasy-changing-in-locker-room-with-trans-upenn-swimmer-lia-thomas/

This is what I was referring to

Right but you do understand that these beliefs are objectively transphobic right?

As in saying all transwomen who live their lives identifying as female do it with the sole person of sexual gratification and on top of that, sexual gratification by abusing women in one way or another?

Stand by your belief, but don't try and pretend it isn't extremely transphobic and is very much discriminatory against transwomen and not in away actually protective of women.

@Dreamwhisper

Out of curiosity how would you want voyeurism for sexual gratification proven in a changing room setting? And I ask as someone who doesn't believe a trans woman in a changing room is a voyeur or a creep.

If for example the TW had an erection while walking through the changing room, would that be proof of sexual gratification/voyeurism? That's what happened with that US trans woman swimmer who walked around the changing room with an erection because he still fancied women (a lot of TW are straight men turned TW lesbians). Made her team mates very uncomfortable. Would you be comfortable seeing an erection in a changing room even if the person said they were TW or would you consider the option they were a voyeuristic creep?

Assuming this hasn't been said yet (because I don't have time to read the whole thread), I would start by reminding the class organisers that they promised this wouldn't happen. If the transwoman has any empathy they'll understand, and most do, so there's not likely to be a drama. Likely, they'd changed elsewhere as requested but there's no locker and it hadn't occurred to them.

But, whatever the hypothetical debate about rights or wrongs, an elderly lady is concerned about how vulnerable she is whilst changing in an open space and that's not something that should be ignored. She is likely not alone in the class, because these women have a lifetime of knowing how vulnerable women generally are, particularly when naked and changing, and will also be aware that their age increases the risk. It's not at all unreasonable that they are unsettled by a male half their age walking into the room whilst they are changing, and no-one with any empathy would say they were.

The best place to start is to raise this, nicely, and highlight this concern, remind the group about their statement, and ask them to have a quiet word. If they push back, remind them that, legally, its a single sex space - not single gender - if there are separate changing rooms at all, so they may be breaking the law, and that what is likely to happen if it isn't resolved is that the elderly ladies will put their need to be safe and feel safe first and will just stop going. Sadly, you may find money talks.

If my understanding of the op is correct, the pool has already done the sensible thing and provided separate changing facilities for trans women, in which case all they have to do is make sure their rules are understood by all concerned and enforced.

This is just emotive language though. It still doesn't change the fact that you have no evidence that this was the case.

I can think of another reason a trans woman would want to be in a female changing room. Because they identify as female so don't want to use the male changing rooms

I'm and would hope my letter would be similar to anyone else's in this situation regardless of belief.

No one is saying you don't have a right to enquire about or request this stuff, of course there are times where it isn't appropriate.

I would not be surprised though if the club comes back and says they stand by their current use of the changing rooms. I'm sure they will most likely be helpful and accommodating to the OP though.

How can you possibly accuse someone walking to put their hat in a locker of "the sexual offence of voyeurism".

Walking through a room of half naked women against their consent. The fucking hat is not the issue here. My point is that it is experienced by the woman whose boundaries are violated by a male seeing them semi-naked in the exact same way, not that they could report to the police as a crime (who would do fuck all anyway).

Maybe the person feels more safe in a group of ladies in their 70s and feels THEY will not be attacked?!

Ah, there we go the male person's wants prioritised over the female person, misogyny on crack again.

His feelings regarding safety are not the concern of the women, any women, the concern for the women is their own privacy, dignity and safety and that is perfectly reasonable, women are not support humans nor are they human shields.