Page 27 | Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

PoolFloat · 2022-08-05T13:57:27+00:00

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand). The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s. The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so. My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it. Can anyone help please?

Dreamwhisper · 05/08/2022 17:40

ganvough · 05/08/2022 17:36

@Dreamwhisper

So you think Lia Post was a voyeur? Since she did have an erection in the female changing rooms. Would you wanted her charged with a crime?
nypost.com/2022/01/27/teammates-are-uneasy-changing-in-locker-room-with-trans-upenn-swimmer-lia-thomas/

This is relevant because it's exactly the reason single sex spaces exist - to provide a space where no one needs to worry about a member of the opposite sex being in the presence of naked/semi naked men or women. And you've proven the point that sex is relevant in a single sex space because no woman should need to face any ambivalence on what the intentions of a person in the changing room are. TW getting used to being around women undressing or pervert - it's not on women to figure it out.

Do I believe that going round with an erection in public spaces is a sexual offence?

I'm 99.9% sure (and hope) that it is.

Am I convinced that the law around this needs to be changed based on that case? No.

OperaStation · 05/08/2022 17:39

Noonecaresifyounamechange · 05/08/2022 15:19

I think the reasons you’re finding it hard to word is because you’re wrong. The “person” is a women, who has ever right to be there.

Out of curiosity, how do you know she is trans?

Does her being trans make her more of a threat than any other women? Would a lesbian, for example, be treated with the same assumptions?

She is biologically male and, for the same reason that other biological males can’t access female only spaces, this person should not be there. There is no place for penises in women’s changing rooms. Ever.

Original poster

PoolFloat · 05/08/2022 17:39

Dreamwhisper · 05/08/2022 17:36

This isn't the first time they have been in the changing room either. The last time my mum came across them, they emerged from a cubicle wearing a towel and went into a shower

So on one occasion they briefly went in to use a locker and on the other occasion they used the changing room but went to a private cubicle so they were not in the communal area?

What is it about women's right to privacy and single sex spaces you don't understand?

OP posts:

Firesidefox · 05/08/2022 17:38

I would definitely complain. I wouldn't want a biological male I'm not married to stripping off in front of me or watching me strip off.

Please help your mum complain. This is absolutely not ok.

Original poster

PoolFloat · 05/08/2022 17:38

SallyLockheart · 05/08/2022 17:36

@PoolFloat could we just check provision at the sports club at the school. Is there changing rooms for male and female? Each with a limited number of cubicles and a communal area with lockers and room to change, presumably with benches and also toilet cubicles as well.

is there a separate changing room for any other provision? Eg disabled/family or group room?

some sports centres have changing villages where there are just changing cubicles where provision is mixed but it doesn’t sound like that

Yes, there are separate women's changing rooms and men's changing rooms.

There are no family changing rooms.

Like I said - this is a school which rents out its sports facilities when the school isn't using them. This isn't a public swimming pool. It's a private members' club. My mum has been going to these classes for over 10 years. She has never ever seen a male bodied person in the changing room before.

OP posts:

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 05/08/2022 17:37

tedgran · 05/08/2022 16:26

Isn't it strange that women are meant to "be kind," and put up with men coming into women's spaces?

Absolutely.
Apparently the ladies with a penis don't have to be nice. They can do what they like. Go where they like. Even stand in a changing room and watch young children undress according to another thread.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2022 17:37

It's not really that I don't understand your perspective on that, it's more that I'm so aghast at your posts asserting that this person must be a sexual predator that it did admittedly preoccupy me.

I didn't say that they absolutely must be a sexual predator. Are you completely incapable of comprehending my posts or are you confusing me with other posters?

Dreamwhisper · 05/08/2022 17:36

This isn't the first time they have been in the changing room either. The last time my mum came across them, they emerged from a cubicle wearing a towel and went into a shower

So on one occasion they briefly went in to use a locker and on the other occasion they used the changing room but went to a private cubicle so they were not in the communal area?

SallyLockheart · 05/08/2022 17:36

@PoolFloat could we just check provision at the sports club at the school. Is there changing rooms for male and female? Each with a limited number of cubicles and a communal area with lockers and room to change, presumably with benches and also toilet cubicles as well.

is there a separate changing room for any other provision? Eg disabled/family or group room?

some sports centres have changing villages where there are just changing cubicles where provision is mixed but it doesn’t sound like that

ganvough · 05/08/2022 17:36

@Dreamwhisper

So you think Lia Post was a voyeur? Since she did have an erection in the female changing rooms. Would you wanted her charged with a crime?
nypost.com/2022/01/27/teammates-are-uneasy-changing-in-locker-room-with-trans-upenn-swimmer-lia-thomas/

This is relevant because it's exactly the reason single sex spaces exist - to provide a space where no one needs to worry about a member of the opposite sex being in the presence of naked/semi naked men or women. And you've proven the point that sex is relevant in a single sex space because no woman should need to face any ambivalence on what the intentions of a person in the changing room are. TW getting used to being around women undressing or pervert - it's not on women to figure it out.

FigRollsAlly · 05/08/2022 17:35

There doesn’t have to be a sexual motive for this to be unacceptable. I’m sure lots of men are perfectly nice and respectful, I still don’t want them in the room when I’m taking underwear on and off and drying myself.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2022 17:35

We have to put pressure on service providers to respect women. It's unacceptable. Only they can choose whether to exclude males from most female spaces, we need to make it equally as much hassle for them to let them in as trans rights activists create when they prioritise women.

Dreamwhisper · 05/08/2022 17:35

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2022 17:22

This is just emotive language though. It still doesn't change the fact that you have no evidence that this was the case.

Well no, I don't have any "evidence" of anything, I'm just reacting to someone's personal account on a talkboard.

You have failed to understand my point, because totally astonishingly you're focussing only on the feelings of the male present and couldn't give two shits how the elderly women felt.

It's not just about why this male person did it, it's that women felt violated by it. And males who use women's spaces knowing that it makes women uncomfortable and scared are not nice. It's not what decent males do, they respect women's privacy and dignity.

This person had another space to change according to OP. They chose to enter a female only space.

It's not really that I don't understand your perspective on that, it's more that I'm so aghast at your posts asserting that this person must be a sexual predator that it did admittedly preoccupy me.

I do think that is one of the problems with transphobia - it discredits the legitimate concerns of women when those concerns do have a right to exist.

Original poster

PoolFloat · 05/08/2022 17:34

FigRollsAlly · 05/08/2022 17:23

I’m a bit confused. Apologies if it’s already been clarified but did the placing of the hat in a locker happen when the elderly ladies were all getting changed ready for their class? If so, I really feel for those poor ladies who were too intimidated to say anything at the time and are now worried about how to say anything without opening themselves up to the sort of accusations of bigotry so often seen on here.

Yes it did. So my mum and some of her friends were getting ready for the class (they weren't naked as they wear their costumes under their clothes before the class) and this person came in from the pool where they had been swimming, put their swim hat in a locker and returned to the pool. Why they felt the need to do that, I don't know.

This isn't the first time they have been in the changing room either. The last time my mum came across them, they emerged from a cubicle wearing a towel and went into a shower.

@Watapalava - for the avoidance of doubt, these are the women's changing rooms. There is one large central space where most women get changed, and 4 cubicles. Some of the women, who had previously changed in the central space, are now changing in a cubicle because they are anxious about encountering this male bodied person in what is supposed to be a single sex space.

OP posts:

Watapalava · 05/08/2022 17:34

I think you’re being precious

you have right to private space to change which your mum has

it’s been years since I went any pool or waterpark which wasn’t just one room with cubicals

they shouldn’t be changing in the open space unless it’s strictly womens only and signed as such? Is it?

bythere · 05/08/2022 17:34

I don't think the lesbian analogy is a fair one even if it's based on supposed sexual attraction. They are not a threat to other women like men are and have been in situations where they have changed around women all their lives so it's far different than a man being in a female change room. The same dynamics just don't apply.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2022 17:33

It's not really drivel though it is the law

There is no law which gives a positive right for these male people to use spaces set aside for women and girls. These are mixed sex spaces and they should make it clear so that women have a choice to avoid them before their privacy and dignity is violated, or they should make use of the Equality Act single sex exemptions in the way they were intended, to provide women with privacy and dignity and to keep us safe when we are vulnerable.

Soontobe60 · 05/08/2022 17:33

Dreamwhisper · 05/08/2022 17:29

It's not really drivel though it is the law, and while you may have no empathy toward people in that situation, frankly who cares? Plenty of people do.

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The law is very clear on who can, and cannot, access single sex spaces. Have you heard about the WiSpa episode?

Blister · 05/08/2022 17:32

Dreamwhisper · 05/08/2022 17:29

It's not really drivel though it is the law, and while you may have no empathy toward people in that situation, frankly who cares? Plenty of people do.

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You lost me here. What does empathy have to do with the law exactly?

BoredofthisCrap7 · 05/08/2022 17:32

"Does her being trans make her more of a threat than any other women? Would a lesbian, for example, be treated with the same assumptions?"

Bullshit.
Of course, by virtue of being MALE, they are more of a threat than any woman.
97% of sexual crimes are committed by men.
Lesbians, however, are female and do not own penises.

As for " speak to her and get to know her" - what a crock of shit. So now, not only are women forced to swallow their reservations, uncomfortable feelings and natural instincts around a male in their personal space in a potential state of undress, we need to "get to know" them.
Be fucking kind.

Also, "frothing at the mouth" ? Is that what you call women rightly concerned about their privacy? Disgusting.

WHY IS IT NOT ENOUGH for you that WOMEN , overwhelmingly, do NOT want to share these spaces with men?
Putting aside the (real) threat men pose to women, putting aside the fact that the poor little TW might be a lovely person, WHY is it not enough that women are entitled to single sex spaces for their privacy, dignity and safety?

His presence ALONE was clearly enough to make women uncomfortable.
WHY IS THAT NOT ENOUGH?

Watapalava · 05/08/2022 17:32

The room isn’t necessarily a ‘changing room’

It’s a room with cubicals that people can change in

that’s not the same as a communal changing room.

op during other classes or free swim is there a separate men and womens room? It has your mum just got used to it being only women on basis of it being mainly women attending aerobics?

maggiemuff · 05/08/2022 17:32

Noonecaresifyounamechange · 05/08/2022 15:19

I think the reasons you’re finding it hard to word is because you’re wrong. The “person” is a women, who has ever right to be there.

Out of curiosity, how do you know she is trans?

Does her being trans make her more of a threat than any other women? Would a lesbian, for example, be treated with the same assumptions?

Maybe 'she' had 'her' penis hanging out. Oh yes sorry, if 'she' has a penis 'she' is not a woman. It's a man!!!

Mywelshmammy · 05/08/2022 17:31

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Dreamwhisper · 05/08/2022 17:31

Blister · 05/08/2022 17:23

But why? Why would they be helpful and accommodating to the op and what do you believe they would do to be helpful and accommodating to the op?

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I've got no idea what they'd do. They sound like a fancy club though so I'm sure fairly sure they'll offer good customer service.

Soontobe60 · 05/08/2022 17:31

hotdiggetydog · 05/08/2022 15:29

Sorry, what's the risk?

The same as from any other male in a female only changing room. It’s also about privacy and dignity.