Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

I'm just not prejudice against trans women, I don't believe the vast, vast majority of people who identify as trans women or trans men do so for any other reason that because of how they feel about their own self and identity.

Men have more than enough avenues to abuse women, sadly. And anyway, sadly it is just one of the truths about the existence of trans people. You can't discriminate against all of them based on the fact that some people might abuse that. You just can't. What you do is you make provisions to exclude them when it feels appropriate. Which is um, exactly what we can do.

No I just misunderstood because of your uncomfortable phrasing.

To be fair I still think saying "I'm asking" you to do that is too emotive and overly personal.

I agree with the bit that says in the equality act that you don't necessarily have to exclude trans people from your single sex spaces. That you can, but it's not the default that you have to.

I don't see how that is any more or less demanding than you saying to me, I don't agree that trans people should be allowed in any single sex spaces. Because you're "asking me" then, to be comfortable with excluding trans women from any womens public toilet etc. And no, I don't actually agree with that. Isn't that clear?

Why do you need to ask me if I think it's okay for trans women to use toilets and changing rooms aimed at women? I've surely made that abundantly clear through my posts?

Why did you feel the need to frame it as me, personally, asking you, personally, to do so?

You are extraordinarily naive, Dreamwhisper. They are just males. All you have to do to be a "trans woman" is say "I identify as a woman". You can literally be a man one day and a woman the next. Or even the same day. The magical thinking of some of the people on this thread is fascinating.

To those saying things like 'you didn't see the trans womens penis so what's the issue'.

What about the womens right to choose whether or not they get naked in front of a male?

I have only been seen naked by my husband, that is my choice, I do not want any other males to see me naked.

I ask for female doctors, I change in female changing rooms.

Women with poor boundaries around males don't have the right to consent on behalf of other women.

@Dreamwhisper But it is bothering people.

It bothered Lia Thomas' swimming team mates. It's bothered OP's mother. Clearly it bothers a lot of women. You don't make rules and policy based on whether a particular person's penis offends or not. You make it on the basis that no stranger's penis should be around women who are in a state of undress when they haven't consented to it. Because women don't need to psychoanalyse whether a penis is safe or not, when they're changing their knickers.

Oh goody, now we should be ok to have exposed penises and erections in single sex spaces as long as it is the “right kind” of erection?

how does a 9 year old girl judge that @Dreamwhisper ? And my 11 year old daughter would actually be slightly uncomfortable seeing her 13 year old brother naked (terrible, I know) but a strange, adult penis person with the right kind of erection should be accepted?

and to be fair that's what I meant by "that's a bit of a reach"

I don't think any decent trans woman would need "protecting" from female changing rooms in case anyone thought ill of there actually perfectly innocent erections

We're not talking about excluding them from "all settings" Dreamwhisper. Don't be disingenuous.

Just the ones where it is necessary to protect women and girls when they are vulnerable, or to give them privacy and dignity.

me disagreeing with you is asking something of you? In what way?

sorry, what were the relevant parts of your post?

My contention is that you think trans women (I would say men), should be able to use women's toilets and changing rooms, is that right?

what follows from that is you are expecting me to share women's toilets and changing rooms with men, yes?

ergo you are asking something of me

and I'm sorry that being asked to examine your beliefs makes you so uncomfortable, but with respect I think that's a you problem not a me problem

Right then it was inappropriate and criminal then.

I think we're losing sight of the fact that I'm in favour of not necessarily excluding trans women from all settings as the impact on their every day life is too great.

I'm not an advocate for any erections, anywhere.

Well..

It's just more simple than that though. Why don't you go about your business if someone is not bothering you and if they are bothering you then make it an issue.

You don't have to figure anything out.

You can't base decisions that effect entire demographics on the potential feelings of other people.

Yes. Women and girls, half the population, should not be negatively affected and have their existing rights ignored because of the potential feelings of a small group of males,

I just asked my husband, a lifelong sports enthusiast, if he's ever seen another man with an erection in the changing rooms caused by rubbing himself dry. He snorted out his drink and told me not to be so ridiculous! That the only time men get erections is when they're sexually aroused.

I'm sorry I can't I'm cringing too much.

I'm saying that if you are going to extrapolate that if I disagree with you, that means I am asking something of you.

By the same token then, you are disagreeing with me and therefore asking something of me.

But this exchange is adding literally no value to anything as you've skipped over the relevant parts of my post and are just doing that strange gas lighty question asking of yours.

I'm on your side. I was just proving to @Dreamwhisper why it's a load of shite saying the onus is on women to figure out whether a man in the changing room is an innocent TW or a perverted voyeur. Single sex spaces exist to stop women ever having to question whether a penis in their presence is safe or not.

Also - do we now need to know the "type" of erections men are having? Is one kind more acceptable than the other? Why should we have to see ANY erections in a female space?

I know, at the point you're equivocating about women being exposed to males' erect penises based on whether it was a good or a bad erection it's probably the time to have a little word with yourself.

I don't have to share my experiences with anyone to justify my beliefs thank you.

I don't think policy can be made around this kind of thing because not all people, traumatised or not, would agree. I have had my share of experiences at the hands of men and still don't feel threatened by trans women doing some things.

I'm not saying my experience and feelings means everybody should be okay with it. But that's the point. You can't base decisions that effect entire demographics on the potential feelings of other people. I don't use the word feelings lightly by the way.

It's not up to me to come up with the answers on how people who's trauma is so extreme that potentially seeing a trans woman should behave and what they should include and exclude in their lives.

You can't simultaneously say that these decisions should be made based on whether some women would feel so traumatised they would have to stop doing something if they saw a trans woman but then equally say it doesn't matter and it's not our problem when someone raises the possibility that a trans woman might be so traumatised by their experiences around men that all they want to do is not have to use male spaces.

You will obviously as people who don't like or care about trans people take massive offence to this but don't try and pretend that is a solely feminist, and not transphobic, endeavour. I am a feminist and I fully appreciate the trauma (with personal experience) women can suffer at the hands of men.

I mean you could if you were transphobic and saw them as unworthy of consideration in the same way.

It's very easy to try and shut people down by bringing out examples of awful things happening but it's not really fair to hold all people accountable and make decisions that prejudice an entire demographic of people because of some criminal peoples' appalling actions.

@Dreamwhisper Ive tweaked your suggestion.

Dear Sir or Madam,

My 70 year old mother attends a swimming class and has informed me a male who possibly identifies as a transwoman used the female changing rooms to put her hat in a locker whilst my mother and other females were in a state of undress in the communal changing area - as there are not enough single use cubicles for all.

My mother was not comfortable with this as she understands according to the Equality Act that the female changing rooms should be single sex spaces only.

Have you completed an impact assessment of making single sex spaces unisex? Are you able to comment as to whether you would be willing to enforce a policy of your changing rooms being single sex only? I understand that it is lawful to do so, however I also understand that your policy may follow the Stonewall laws and therefore be to allow people to use the changing room of the opposite sex rather than their biological sex if they identify as trans.

Could you please clarify this matter for me, and if your current policy states that you do not want your changing rooms to be single sex, can you advise when you will be providing single sex provisions for people who are not prepared to put their privacy, safety and dignity at risk, along with those who’s religion forbid them to be undressed in the presence of the opposite sex?

I appreciate your help in this sensitive matter.

"transgendered people with their corresponding single sex space (that matches their gender identity)"

Well, that's going to be a problem then isn't it?
Because as soon as a trans person uses the "corresponding single sex space that matches their gender identity", it is NO LONGER A SINGLE SEX SPACE!
Not for the 99% of other women who are using it.

Also - do we now need to know the "type" of erections men are having? Is one kind more acceptable than the other? Why should we have to see ANY erections in a female space?

I can't believe I'm reading this shite.
Some poor little TW got an innocent erection, it's not her fault, don't look, be kind, stop frothing at the mouth etc.

Give your head a wobble.

Further to this, you seem to think I’m asking something of you

can you explain what that is?

@ganvough

so let me get this straight. Someone with a penis is in a girls changing room and they have an ‘involuntary ‘ erection, but no one should feel threatened or even just embarrassed because it is involuntary.

How do the girls know that it is involuntary? I haven’t got a penis, and indeed have never had one, but I rather thought that most erections were involuntary , in that they are a reaction to a stimulus which the penis owner finds, well, arousing. Erections are Precursors to sexual activity, and if the penis owner is not with a person or person who has expressed or demonstrated a reciprocal interest or intention……that’s sexual harassment.

it really doesn’t matter if the person with a penis is Mr Predator or dear little Lia, it’s still harassment, and girls and women have a legal right not to be subjected to it.

The person is a male, now changing in the same space as other women, why does he have more rights than a bunch of women?

The law on accessing female single sex spaces is exactly the same for all males, if whatever gender identity. It's not illegal for any men to use them, it's a social contract that they don't. Expect there to be zero female single sex spaces in future, as women will start bringing men into them for protection.

Was it an erection because they were aroused or is it an erection like when I change my baby boy's poo nappy and the motion of the wipes triggers it?

That's the thing, the team mates said it was a sign of him being attracted to women still. They said it made them uncomfortable.

But it's an erection, the reasons don't matter and no one will ever be able to prove why it happened. The point is if a well known TW poster child like Lia Thomas can have this issue of an erection when being in a women's changing room, you have to assume many other TW (who were straight as men) will too. Especially those who are entering women's spaces for the first time. Just like straight men would. However it is not the job of women to be understanding of this or waste any time pondering the reasons or their comfort. That's why TW with a penis cannot and should not be allowed in women's changing rooms.