Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

I mean, is it really extreme? I don't feel it's not in keeping with a large number of the other posts. I'm not insulting anyone. But all the things I've listed have happened.

@Dreamwhisper

Personally, I don't think TW are all predators, but as you say there are some pretty bad apples out there. The point is just that studies have shown that TW as a population (not as individuals) have a similar offending pattern to males and as you acknowledge real world examples show that women and girls HAVE been harmed by predatory TW, or men posing as TW.

Given that studies have shown that sexual assaults generally occur in mixed sex spaces, opening up single sex spaces is likely to make women and girls less safe overall (more opportunities for those bad apples to exercise bad behaviour around women and girls). Most of the time this won't have a consequence, but sometimes it will. So, if there are 20 more sexual assaults a year as a result of opening up single sex spaces to TW, is that acceptable to you? Is that a fair price to pay? This isn't transphobia, it's a fair question about the balancing of rights. If you choose to accept that assaults have happened and that they tend to happen in mixed sex facilities (because this is where male predators can access female victims), this is just the corollary of what you are saying.

What is the fair price for women and girls to pay? Does it matter that more assaults, more voyeurism etc will happen if it is still rare overall?

I mean, not that finding women's concerns hilarious is especially respectful.

But in general, I think MN shows that people can disagree with each other without something awful happening.

@Whattheheckinhell Could you please expand on who exactly belongs in 'trans' demographic?

Anyone saying they identify as trans?

Is there any independent verification to what they state, 'cos you know, that's how 'demographic' is normally defined - objectively, not subjectively?

I feel like their world view only makes sense if one views trans women as violent, heterosexual, brutish sex predators whose sole interest in life is accessing women to abuse. Do I think this has happened? Yes of course, that is evident. Do I believe that should be the basis on which we judge and treat trans women? Of course not - when is it ever okay to employ such prejudice?

But aren't TW viewing men the same way by not wanting to share changing rooms with them despite having the exact same genitalia?! If they don't want to be around penises because of what they represent, why do they think other women want to be around their penis???? Where's their empathy for how women may feel around them?

the demographic I'm talking about at this point is sex. what sex is a transwoman?

Amen to that!

@Dreamwhisper "Do I believe that should be the basis on which we judge and treat trans women? Of course not - when is it ever okay to employ such prejudice?"

Such prejudice as you call it has been employed forever, that's why we have male and female facilities - changing rooms, prisons, domestic abuse shelters....... men pose a risk to women, so women have separate spaces.

Transwomen are men, that is their biology and their socialisation. They may not be happy about being men but that doesn't actually change the facts.

Men as a class pose a higher risk to women then women do. That is supported by decades of crime statistics.

You may be happy to accept a higher level of risk for yourself but I'm not happy to accept that higher risk for myself or for my daughter.

I'm sorry your reaction to people disagreeing with you is so extreme. Again, I'd venture to suggest that is a you problem

You may be about to write a post addressing the Katie Dolowski question, in which case apologies for jumping the gun. however

You may not be able to accept this, but your world view means that the sexual assault suffered by that 10 year old girl is acceptable, because ensuring dignity for transwomen by allowing them to use women's toilets is more important than any thing else.

I know it was only one little girl. my contention is that it should be no little girls

he grabbed her by the face and pushed her into a cubical, then ordered her to remove her trousers. her father was waiting for her outside, because men don't go in the ladies toilets do they?

Of course it's OK when there's no opposition - an easier chat can be had.

But it is so, so much better when opposition does show up. They're giving us the debate that Stonewall said we weren't allowed. And sunlight. And it's ok, isn't it? I've not rtwt but what I've dipped into seems respectful enough on both sides?

Poor you, your life sounds tough. As often stated on this board - please report any transphobia to MNHQ, they're very good at removing any trace.

Meanwhile, OP, do read the latest EHRC guidance and perhaps take the people saying this is the law right now with a pinch of salt.

It is not. The EA 2010 has been deliberately misinterpreted by Stonewall and coattail-riders. There is no reason why a male should make elderly ladies uncomfortable in their own changing rooms.

Isn't it. And we are supposed to shut up and BEEEEE KIIIIIIIIIIIND. Fuck off.

It's got nothing to do with transphobia amd everything to so with men.

Again.

What about the fact that that they JUST DON'T WANT MEN PRESENT?

Nothing to do with criminal behaviour/perversion etc.

JUST the fact that women are entitled to single sex spaces for their privacy and dignity?

I care about women and girls feelings.

I feel like the people who post here are transphobic and are using their world view to inform the fact that the vast majority of women feel the same blanket fear and distrust of the typical trans woman than they do. I believe they allow their feminist beliefs to legitimise their transphobia and denigrate other women for feeling differently.

I feel like their world view only makes sense if one views trans women as violent, heterosexual, brutish sex predators whose sole interest in life is accessing women to abuse. Do I think this has happened? Yes of course, that is evident. Do I believe that should be the basis on which we judge and treat trans women? Of course not - when is it ever okay to employ such prejudice?

I am sick and tired of legitimate concerns in niche areas of life being delegitimised by sickening transphobia. I'm sick and tired of being insulted, called a naive snowflake (and far worse on past threads) for disagreeing with the majority and not being willing to use examples of criminal predators to represent the trans community.

I'm sick and tired of it being okay to bleat on at people like me for "not caring" about women and girls (when most posters are women) while in the same breath absolutely slating, ridiculing and shaming other people just for existing.

Goodness, there are a lot of women (and others) prioritising male feelings over female feelings. The Patriarchy is alive and kicking in 2022.

Of course your mother and other older woman should have the human rights or privacy and dignity, that is changing and being naked safe in the knowledge that no men will be there.

It’s very simple.

Anyone arguing otherwise has no care over the privacy or dignity rights of your mother and older women. And risk or potential risk is another layer but even without this, of course sexes need and want separate spaces, this has been respected for hundreds of years.

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

I was obviously being sarcastic that was my point! I wasn't the one making the far fetched point that one of the reasons we should exclude trans women from changing rooms is in case they get an erection and the women involved get the wrong end of the stick!!

Very confused why you think this is far fetched? Why do we ban straight men from women's changing rooms then? Is it because they're all creeps who can't be trusted around women?

So you think if a man with a penis who is attracted to women is around women in various stages of undress including nudity, the chances he'd get an erection are slim? Because erections are based on men with penises being sexually attracted to women and that's exactly what a lot of TW are! Men with penises who are attracted to women but believe they are women. Being TW doesn't exclude you from basic biology I.e if you're a straight man who fancies women, seeing them naked or in very little will trigger a visible reaction. Not every TW goes from gay man to straight woman. Plenty go from straight man to lesbian woman WITH a PENIS.

Lia Thomas is a TW. A well known one. She gets erections in changing rooms despite being a TW. She isn't a freak or a pervert. She's a former straight man with a penis around semi naked women. It's really not far fetched to think there will be plenty of others like her.

the idea that men are an oppressed minority is certainly an interesting perspective

Nice one, sorry I'm busy not picking on a minority because I'm bored x

Busy being a bit of a fanny though.

Again, this is why Mumsnet FWR is called a radicalisation portal by trans activists, it's great for consciousness raising of how nobody considers women and girls, think our feelings and concerns are hilarious, while male feelings must be pandered to at all times. And once you see it, you can never unsee it. And it makes women fully aware of what is going on and be inclined to say no, that doesn't work for me.

So do carry on in the same vein, we love to see it.

What else would you call it when a group of biological men are seeking safety in the spaces and presence of women, because they are fearful or anxious about the potential violence from their own biological sex?

They seek refuge away from this perceived threat in the company and space of women (who overwhelmingly do not want them there).

THEY don't feel safe in the men's space, and yet they have no compunction at ALL about inflicting the very same feelings and concerns onto women.
As long as THEY'RE safe eh?