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Original poster

Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

842 replies

PoolFloat · 05/08/2022 14:57

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand).

The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk

I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s.

The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so.

My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it.

Can anyone help please?

OP posts:
HooverIsAlwaysBroken · 05/08/2022 21:43

I never thought about these issues when it was only me. Then I had an ageing mother and now daughters.

and some “kind” people want to consent on behalf of my vulnerable loved ones to be “kind” without considering that it may cause distress. I am so over it.

FatAgainItsLettuceTime · 05/08/2022 21:31

@HooverIsAlwaysBroken I think that's what's pushed me over the edge too.

I have an 8yr old daughter and I despair over the utter shit she's going to be sold about gender identity and boundaries.

We've been diligent in teaching it her the PANTs rule and making sure she knows what the boundaries are, that she has the right to privacy, that she can and should say no and trust her instincts and now there's all this tripe being peddled that she should ignore the evidence that's in front of her, push down any feelings of discomfort to appease the feelings of the men and not uphold her boundaries around who gets to see her body because it might offend a TW.

Grrrrrrrr

HooverIsAlwaysBroken · 05/08/2022 21:25

@FatAgainItsLettuceTime no worries at all.

I get frustrated about this whole thing as well, especially given the fact that I have underaged daughters and that strangers on the internet seems to think that they can consent on behalf of them 🤮

VestofAbsurdity · 05/08/2022 21:25

Dreamwhisper · 05/08/2022 17:28

No one said you can change sex that's why they identify as trans women.

Your personal view might be "tough shit" but it is not the view of everyone.

I think I've made my points though and some replies have been very eye opening.

Show quote history

You were the one who said they identify as female it's right there in your post which I quoted, now you are backtracking and saying they identify as transwomen.

Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

FatAgainItsLettuceTime · 05/08/2022 21:22

@HooverIsAlwaysBroken yes sorry, in my frustrated rant Ines I forgot to say that I was agreeing with your final sentence in an earlier post

"why are women’s feelings worth less than biological males?"

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2022 21:18

I remember reading FWR a few years ago and a poster told me that it never was about the “safe spaces”, it was about the women in those spaces. I just feel so disappointed every time this is shown to be right. Still.

@Datun makes this argument very well, that it's normally about access to a space with women in it, not having access to a space other than the men's if there are no women in it.

CherryBlossomAutumn · 05/08/2022 21:16

@PoolFloat really? Your latest update really does prove what many have been warning about all along. This is about more than this particular trans person’s ‘feelings’, it is about something a bit more sinister to be honest, an erosion of other’s very valid and important boundaries.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2022 21:15

They had been using that since the original 'coming out of a cubicle in a towel' incident.

Does that mean the women in your mum's group have already complained and that was the agreed arrangement? The school just need to insist on it then if so.

HooverIsAlwaysBroken · 05/08/2022 21:14

@PoolFloat i am getting this sad feeling that I am getting when I learn something horrid about a person.

I remember reading FWR a few years ago and a poster told me that it never was about the “safe spaces”, it was about the women in those spaces. I just feel so disappointed every time this is shown to be right. Still.

LK1972 · 05/08/2022 21:14

FatAgainItsLettuceTime · 05/08/2022 21:04

@HooverIsAlwaysBroken

I am well and truly fed up of some women thinking that can just give away my right to privacy and dignity.

I do not want any men to walk in on me in the swimming changing rooms when I'm naked.

If I am in hospital I do not want a strange man in the bed next to me

If I end up in prison one day I do not want to be locked in a cell and forced to go to the toilet and shower in front of a man.

If I ever end up in a psychiatric facility I do not want to be forced to share a room with a man

If I am ever raped I do not want to have to choose between no counselling/support or having to recount my rape in front of a man?

If I need to receive intimate care due to an accident or illness I do not want a man changing my tampon or sanitary towels or washing me.

I do not want to be forced to accept a man in any female spaces or roles. Whether that man wants to be a woman or not.

This

CherryBlossomAutumn · 05/08/2022 21:14

BiscuitLover3678 · 05/08/2022 20:38

Ok so what if the penis has been removed.
Is this person allowed to change in there? 🤷🏻‍♀️

No. A man is a man.

If that person with the penis removed wants to change the single sex spaces away from men’s, then they have to come up with a solution that doesn’t impinge on the right to privacy and dignity of women. It again is very simple. What that is? Well that’s for the person to create, although the simplest and most cost effective is to just keeping using the men’s changing rooms as he is still a biological man. That is the least harm and the least disruption of human rights, privacy and dignity for society.

Original poster
PoolFloat · 05/08/2022 21:11

Just for clarity:

My mum has been told that this person has been offered another changing room. It's a women's changing room. It's a little bit further away from the pool but it is for women and it's not used at this time of day. They had been using that since the original 'coming out of a cubicle in a towel' incident.

Despite being offered a perfectly good changing room which is WOMEN ONLY, they have now decided to come back to the women only changing room which has other women in it.

OP posts:
HooverIsAlwaysBroken · 05/08/2022 21:10

@FatAgainItsLettuceTime DId you mean to @ me?

I am completely on your side. And love your username 😁!

wellhelloitsme · 05/08/2022 21:09

Dreamwhisper · 05/08/2022 16:14

This just smacks of transphobia to me. Single sex spaces should be protected where the ends justifies the means, sure - i.e. women only DV and sexual violence support, and such settings designed specifically for women in vulnerable positions.

Every day life is not a place where you can demand single sex spaces in all situations precisely because it puts trans people in an impossible position.

OP you should know well enough that you could call or ring them to discuss this and they would either oblige you or tell you they don't feel the need to do anything.

You've posted this in mumsnet sex and gender so you clearly know what's what and just wanted everyone to agree with how awful it is that this poor transwoman did something you don't agree with.

settings designed specifically for women in vulnerable positions

Women in vulnerable positions... you mean like elderly women in a space that's always been single sex (not gender) who are in varying states of undress?

Glad you agree there is no reason a male bodied person should be in a single sex female changing room.

CherryBlossomAutumn · 05/08/2022 21:08

@Dreamwhisper If you care about women and girls feelings, why would you want to give away their privacy and dignity rights, just because a man wants these? For whatever reason (be it trans identification or otherwise).

Genuine question. Simple question.

FatAgainItsLettuceTime · 05/08/2022 21:04

@HooverIsAlwaysBroken

I am well and truly fed up of some women thinking that can just give away my right to privacy and dignity.

I do not want any men to walk in on me in the swimming changing rooms when I'm naked.

If I am in hospital I do not want a strange man in the bed next to me

If I end up in prison one day I do not want to be locked in a cell and forced to go to the toilet and shower in front of a man.

If I ever end up in a psychiatric facility I do not want to be forced to share a room with a man

If I am ever raped I do not want to have to choose between no counselling/support or having to recount my rape in front of a man?

If I need to receive intimate care due to an accident or illness I do not want a man changing my tampon or sanitary towels or washing me.

I do not want to be forced to accept a man in any female spaces or roles. Whether that man wants to be a woman or not.

SolasAnla · 05/08/2022 21:04

Dreamwhisper · 05/08/2022 16:55

Dear Sir or Madam,

My 70 year old mother attends a swimming class and has informed me a trans woman used the female changing rooms to put her hat in a locker.

My mother was not comfortable with this as she would prefer if the female changing rooms were single sex spaces only.

Are you able to comment as to whether you would be willing to enforce a policy of your changing rooms being single sex only? I understand that it is possible to do this lawfully however I also understand that your policy may be to allow trans gendered people to use the changing room of their chosen gender rather than their biological sex.

Could you please clarify this matter for me, and if your current policy states that you do not require your changing rooms to be single sex, can you advise if there are any single occupancy facilities that my mother could use when swimming at your club?

I appreciate your help in this sensitive matter.

Yours sincerely,

Blister

That is exactly what I would write if I were in your position. It really doesn't need to be a full blown attack on anyone, you don't need to go into a transphobic rant (where you will justifiably get accused of, erm, transphobia).

Show quote history

1/100

Your bias is showing.

LK1972 · 05/08/2022 21:03

'If you don't object you lose your privacy and safe spaces and admit any male bodied person who states to the management that they identify as female' - the only answer here can be 'no, thank you'.

I object!

lurchermummy · 05/08/2022 21:02

@Noonecaresifyounamechange maybe because "she" has a cock and balls?

LK1972 · 05/08/2022 21:01

The men are the ones who need to be kind and understanding - this, rinse and repeat.

C8H10N4O2 · 05/08/2022 21:00

The responses here are crazy, utterly crazy. Do you all realise that you are just giving ammunition to those who shout ‘terf’ whenever a woman raises an objection?

Oh the witch ducking argument.

If you object you confirm you are crazy, mad, terf, bigot, are overruled and lose intimate spaces to any male bodied person who states to the management that they identify as female.

If you don't object you lose your privacy and safe spaces and admit any male bodied person who states to the management that they identify as female.

How lucky that that predators and perverts never misuse such situations. 🙄

LK1972 · 05/08/2022 20:59

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 05/08/2022 20:57

The responses here are crazy, utterly crazy. Do you all realise that you are just giving ammunition to those who shout ‘terf’

No, you are the crazy one for pretending that men in women's changing rooms is no big deal.

It would appear that way

LK1972 · 05/08/2022 20:59

HooverIsAlwaysBroken · 05/08/2022 20:54

@Aurora231 I used to think as you. Believe me, I have the outmost compassion for anyone suffering.

but my understanding is that the transwoman entered the single sex, female changing room as women were changing? Some may have experienced sexual assault. Why do we think “poor transwoman, probably had a difficult life” and not “what if a woman in a state of undress had been sexually assaulted and was triggered by seeing a penis person go past when naked?”.

why are women’s feelings worth less than biological males?

And some just didn't ever consider this a possibility within our social contract.

It is not an accepted view that women should be ok in the same space as males, when women are naked or otherwise vulnerable, however those males identify.

Please see the latest YouGov stats.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 05/08/2022 20:57

The responses here are crazy, utterly crazy. Do you all realise that you are just giving ammunition to those who shout ‘terf’

No, you are the crazy one for pretending that men in women's changing rooms is no big deal.

Blister · 05/08/2022 20:55

Aurora231 · 05/08/2022 20:46

The responses here are crazy, utterly crazy. Do you all realise that you are just giving ammunition to those who shout ‘terf’ whenever a woman raises an objection?
I believe that woman’s rights should not be trampled on but for goodness sake - this person is just minding their own business, enjoying using a swimming pool, using the communal facilities as suggested. For whatever reason they needed to put a swim cap in a locker. Maybe they got confused, maybe there are no lockers in the communal area, maybe they were given a key at reception and it was only for the women’s changing. All of those are infinitely more likely reasons than this person wanting to assault an elderly woman.
Some of you ought to be ashamed of what you have written here - it is transphobic and I don’t use that term lightly.

and the argument that most assaults against women are perpetuated by men. Ok well most violent crime in London is perpetuated by young impoverished black men. Shall we just lock them all up? Oh no, of course not. Because that’s racism.

I believe most transgender people have much more difficult lives than any of us can ever understand. That doesn’t mean that biological males should compete in female sports, or go to female prisons. But it a trans woman wants to quickly put a swim cap in a locker, ffs.

If a transwoman wants to put a swim cap in a locker, the transwoman can quickly put it in the men's lockers.

The men are the ones who need to be kind and understanding.

And if that is ammunition then so be it me.

I'm tired of being afraid of saying that women are a sex class worthy of respect.

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