Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

Absolutely Spot On Terfydactyl.

This is how it will play out.

And because TWAW, they are women completely, unquestionably, unarguably and totally, meaning that they want nothing less than 100% compliance in ALL AREAS OF LIFE.
That means that anything less than total acceptance is not enough.
That means that third spaces are not for them, because they are women.
That means no debate.
That means they use the ladies toilets because they ARE ladies. Why should they use a third space?

No TW who agrees with the new religion is voluntarily going to use a space that "others" them in any way.
They see it as their right. Third spaces will be more MEN's spaces.

@Terfydactyl and OP, yes I feel a bit naive as I too thought third spaces were the answer. However just listening to the OP and her mother it is clear we are being bullied, all of us. OPs mother is now having to compromise her own feelings of dignity and undress somewhere else. A woman who at the ver least deserves some respect from us in society, to be able to go swimming without all of this stress.

OPs mum is in no way being any kind of phobic. She needs her social human rights and privacy respected. Because of the insistence of one man, there has been a cascade of others having to be put out.

This not a man who is, say disabled, and cannot access swimming without support. This is a man who can use the men’s changing rooms, but prefers not to. Prefers… There is absolute no need for him to do so.

Against the absolute needs of the OPs mother. Surely this is crystal clear?

And I'll be very very clear how this will go should third spaces actually happen. Only men will use them. Leading to yet another space for men

I agree. And to make this 'third space' they'll have to reduce the space given to women and people with disabilities.

Literally every single woman that comes across this and realises that transwomen in the womens is a bad idea comes up with third spaces.
I'm all for stonewall et al doing there level best to get funding, sort it all out and start creating these spaces.

However I am (many of us are) further along , and we already know that this won't work because it's not validating.

So personally I could care less how they are marketed, who will use them, because they will not happen.

And I'll be very very clear how this will go should third spaces actually happen. Only men will use them. Leading to yet another space for men. Oh initially women, carers, parents with slightly too old opposite sex children to use the parents space. Then over a short space of time, attacks will happen, creeps will use them hoping to find women alone, cameras will be planted, etc etc all the things that are now happening in women only spaces and all women will stop using them.
You can quote me on this in the event third spaces become a thing.

I also think that a lot of men, regardless of gender identity, don't like the idea of a 'keep out' sign - spaces where women can go but they can't. In part, that's why sex segregated space are disappearing.

Definitely. Most of the men screaming abuse at women who want single sex spaces are not trans at all.

Look at the number of times men have tried to have this forum shut down.

Look at the removal of words women use to describe themselves and the replacement with words that reduce women to descriptions of biological functions.

Some men cannot abide the thought that women should have anything for themselves, there is an element of utter hatred of women running through all this and then you have the unpalatable sight of other women helping them, cheering them on and kow-towing to them oblivious of the fact that the men hate them too and laugh at the fact they are using them as useful idiots in the destruction of women's and girls rights.

I also think that a lot of men, regardless of gender identity, don't like the idea of a 'keep out' sign - spaces where women can go but they can't. In part, that's why sex segregated space are disappearing.

I see no reason to validate anyone.

I really don’t.

Don’t discriminate (such as in job interviews). Don’t abuse anyone, full stop. Allow someone to be whatever their ‘authentic self’ is, sure, of course, totally not my business really. Allow as in, don’t bully them or discriminate. Can’t think of a better word.

I’ve never had a gay (single sex attracted) person ask me to validate them in any way.

This is creeping into so many areas. Apparently I have to validate a lot of self identification otherwise that means I’m a bigot.

What the hell is going on?!

I think I was clear. Everyone changes in a cubicle. It’s really not a problem. My point was that everyone deserves privacy when they are changing and this gives it.

It would be clear if you were talking about a completely different place with more cubicles, yes. But this this is a single sex area not a mixed one.

@ToppCat But this person had a whole changing room! A giant cubicle if you like. What was wrong with using that?

@ToppCat

I think I was clear. Everyone changes in a cubicle. It’s really not a problem.

There are 4 cubicles in OP's mums changing room and 22 elderly women in her class.

Are you seriously saying that if they are uncomfortable with a male bodied person potentially walking in again, those elderly women should queue up in their towels and wait to use the cubicles one by one?

Rather than the trans woman using the separate changing room available to them?

If the wants of one natal man outweigh the needs of 22 elderly women, you need to ask yourself whether you can really claim to respect women as much as you respect men.

But that doesn't help the OP's mum & her friends who are stuck with a communal space & only a few cubicles.

Trans women also need somewhere to change and privacy and are entitled to protection.

So are women.

I suggest forcing them to use men’s changing rooms wouldn’t necessarily be safe for them.

I suggest forcing women to share a changing room with natal males wouldn't necessarily be safe for them and also violates their right to dignity and privacy from male bodied people.

I wish TRAs who wish for women to share their single sex spaces with male bodied people, despite it creating a currently absent risk that keeps women statistically incredibly safer than they are in mixed sex spaces, would just be honest... when it comes down to it, they think that if push comes to shove the safety, dignity, privacy and comfort of natal women is less important than that of natal men.

I think I was clear. Everyone changes in a cubicle. It’s really not a problem. My point was that everyone deserves privacy when they are changing and this gives it.

Absolutely.

"Suck on my lady dick" is always a highlight.

terfisaslur.com

Which is it @ToppCat

a) do you strip off your swimsuit (so that you are naked in a communal mixed sex changing room with other random males and females), dry your self off, dress in dry clothing, and leave?

Or

b) leave the communal area which is reserved as access only space and enter a use a single sex cubicle before you strip off your swimsuit?

Plus what do you think is going to happen to the male if he uses the men's changing room? What would he need protection from that the OP's mother has no equal need of protection from??

And once we did share our thoughts, we were called bigots.

and much worse, including death threats, rape threats, threats of sexual violence, threats to report to employers, calls for us to be sacked, doxxed, the list goes on and on and on. And they wonder why women feel unsafe sharing spaces with people who do that, it's one helluva mystery.

And once we did share our thoughts, we were called bigots.

@Dreamwhisper

Apologies if I missed it but I would be interested in your thoughts on these questions re third spaces.

Well yes, they would be male, female and gender neutral. All the women who say they have no issue at all sharing a space such as a bathroom with a trans woman are welcome to show their solidarity and allyship by using the gender neutral space as it would be open for all.

If single sex male spaces are an issue and the reason trans women feel unsafe using them, why on earth wouldn't it be safer to offer gender neutral toilets for them to use?

Are you meaning because natal men who are dangerous could use them and we can't tell which are dangerous and which aren't?

Because that's exactly our point. You can never tell. Why should natal women have to take that risk and not trans women?

I didn't say it's a woman's burden but did say as feminists it's probably something we should stay aware of especially as the default so far has been to assume women would be okay with including trans women in their settings.

Yes they made the assumption, women were never asked - what a surprise, almost like we don't matter.

I didn't say it's a woman's burden but did say as feminists it's probably something we should stay aware of especially as the default so far has been to assume women would be okay with including trans women in their settings.

I honestly don't think this is true. I think an accurate version of the end of that statement is:

"...the default so far has been to assume women would should be okay with including trans women in their settings."

Wow thanks so much for taking the time to put this together!

@wellhelloitsme I've already addressed some of those points you made in your latest post with my last post but we probably cross posted.

I didn't say it's a woman's burden but did say as feminists it's probably something we should stay aware of especially as the default so far has been to assume women would be okay with including trans women in their settings. And just to reiterate a third time, I wasn't saying in that post that the solution is them having access to female spaces.

the vast majority of people do think spaces like toilets should be single sex. So I wonder how a third space would be even broached to the public.

I don't understand what you mean. People think that toilets should be single sex because they think that men (of whatever identity) shouldn't be in the women's toilets. As long as single sex toilets exist no one's going to care if third spaces for special people also exist.

But you're right that it's not a solution, because trans activists don't want third spaces, they want men to be in in women's spaces.

Got to get to work, but here are some stats.

Freedom of information requests confirm 90 per cent of sexual assaults in leisure centres and public pools occur in mixed-sex changing areas. (from FOI requests in both UK & Ireland)

Look up these URLs in an archive if you need to:

UK

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

IRL

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mixed-sex-toilets-could-make-bad-situation-worse-3b3cxkftl

A recent Ofsted report found that 79 per cent of girls have been sexually assaulted at school — with many attacks taking place in mixed-sex toilets.

This is from this report

www.gov.uk/government/publications/review-of-sexual-abuse-in-schools-and-colleges/review-of-sexual-abuse-in-schools-and-colleges

The girls who responded to our questionnaire indicated that, in order of prevalence, the following types of harmful sexual behaviours happened ‘a lot’ or ‘sometimes’ between people their age:

Non-contact forms, but face-to-face:

-sexist name-calling (92%)
-rumours about their sexual activity (81%)
-unwanted or inappropriate comments of a sexual nature (80%)

Non-contact forms, online or on social media:

-being sent pictures or videos they did not want to see (88%)
-being put under pressure to provide sexual images of themselves (80%)
-having pictures or videos that they sent being shared more widely without their knowledge or consent (73%)
-being photographed or videoed without their knowledge or consent (59%)
-having pictures or videos of themselves that they did not know about being circulated (51%)

Contact forms:

-sexual assault of any kind (79%)
-feeling pressured to do sexual things that they did not want to (68%)
-unwanted touching (64%)

There have been government consultations about mixed sex toilet provision if I remember correctly. And the government has now issued guidance that single sex provisions must be available in government buildings.

www.gov.uk/government/news/all-public-buildings-to-have-separate-male-and-female-toilets

I am off to work, but hopefully this will help provide starting points.