Page 19 | Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

PoolFloat · 2022-08-05T13:57:27+00:00

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand). The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s. The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so. My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it. Can anyone help please?

GerronBuzanDoThaWomwok · 06/08/2022 00:31

I wouldn't allow a man to invade the sex-based legally protected space of my mother. Go with your mum, challenge the man, and eject him. Unless he's an adult human female?

MeaninglessGraphs · 06/08/2022 00:28

Men deciding to identify as women, whether 50 years ago or 5 minutes ago, are still men.
Can't see what is so complicated about it. Men are still men.

They know they are men. We know they are men. As men, they do not belong in spaces for girls and women. Men muscling in on women's spaces is total misogyny, a total "fuck you" to women. And we know it.

If they had any respect at all, at all, for women and girls, then they would show that respect, and stay away from single-sex spaces for girls and women.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2022 23:56

One of the things that interests me when we have these debates is when we use the words trans women what are we describing. Is it some one who woke up today and decided to be a women? . Is it a women who after years of therapy and surgeries has transitioned to be a women. ? There's a big difference between the two

It's a good question. It can mean either of these, but as an umbrella term as used in policy making it means both.

DarkDayforMN · 05/08/2022 23:24

The PP is maybe conflating knife crime with all violent crime, and “non-white” with black. Around 2/3 of knife crime in London is committed by non-white people.

Thanks for suddenly appearing to clarify that the PP meant something different from what they said. 🤨

What they said was racist.

“Conflating” a bunch of things with other different things in order to accuse black people of being criminals is still racist.

MeaninglessGraphs · 05/08/2022 23:15

What does it take, for women's "NO" to be taken seriously?

NO.

No. We don't consent. NO men in spaces for girls and women. It's not difficult. We do not consent to men in spaces and facilities for women and girls.

LK1972 · 05/08/2022 23:12

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LK1972 · 05/08/2022 23:09

RedDiamond · 05/08/2022 23:07

Why is it we only hear complaints and problems about Transwomen?

I don't believe I have ever heard about a transman who caused any unrest? Maybe I don't read the appropriate newspapers?

Well, we hear about transmen giving a miracle birth though

SantaCarlaCalifornia · 05/08/2022 23:07

autienotnaughty · 05/08/2022 22:56

One of the things that interests me when we have these debates is when we use the words trans women what are we describing. Is it some one who woke up today and decided to be a women? . Is it a women who after years of therapy and surgeries has transitioned to be a women. ? There's a big difference between the two

That's what this board has been warning about for years and has been called transphobic for.

Once you let in any male, for example, they could have transitioned 30 years ago and have had full surgery and hormones, you let in any male that decided today was the day they were a woman.

How can you let in one lot and not the others?

I personally don't agree that any male should be let in at all. Third spaces all the way, people who don't mind mixed-sex areas can use them and everyone else can use the one that matches their sex.

RedDiamond · 05/08/2022 23:07

Why is it we only hear complaints and problems about Transwomen?

I don't believe I have ever heard about a transman who caused any unrest? Maybe I don't read the appropriate newspapers?

BoredofthisCrap7 · 05/08/2022 23:01

autienotnaughty · 05/08/2022 22:56

One of the things that interests me when we have these debates is when we use the words trans women what are we describing. Is it some one who woke up today and decided to be a women? . Is it a women who after years of therapy and surgeries has transitioned to be a women. ? There's a big difference between the two

I'm not sure there is a big difference.
Neither one can "transition to be a woman". It's not possible.

I'll concede that the TW who has had years of therapy, surgery etc is probably more committed, but that doesn't mean they are female.
It doesn't mean they should have access to women's spaces either.

And it's the same old argument - how trans is trans? When are you trans enough?
At what point does the magic happen and you "become" a woman?

StillHappy · 05/08/2022 23:00

autienotnaughty · 05/08/2022 22:56

One of the things that interests me when we have these debates is when we use the words trans women what are we describing. Is it some one who woke up today and decided to be a women? . Is it a women who after years of therapy and surgeries has transitioned to be a women. ? There's a big difference between the two

Taking the Stonewall definition, it is literally any man who for any reason feels, at that moment, that he feels more comfortable / happy using the female facility.

autienotnaughty · 05/08/2022 22:56

One of the things that interests me when we have these debates is when we use the words trans women what are we describing. Is it some one who woke up today and decided to be a women? . Is it a women who after years of therapy and surgeries has transitioned to be a women. ? There's a big difference between the two

StillHappy · 05/08/2022 22:54

I agree with the other posts, it’s about validation or intimidation, not at all about them not wanting to share facilities with other men.

As this case shows, the had another area available, one for only his use, but he did not want privacy, or dignity, he wanted to use the area that women were using.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2022 22:51

BoredofthisCrap7 · 05/08/2022 22:01

Of course it's all about the other women, not the actual physical space. As has been proven time and time again.

A space is just an empty room without "other women" there to give validation to their belief.
Hey, they're just one of the girls!
But without other women there to accept them, they're just a sad man in a room.

That's a big part of the reason why I believe third spaces would never work.
It's missing the all important validation.

They don't want their own spaces. They want our spaces.
And if you think that's hyperbole, watch a few select Youtube videos with TW gloating about intimidating women in the female bathrooms.

Yes, all this.

StillHappy · 05/08/2022 22:38

DarkDayforMN · 05/08/2022 21:58

Ok well most violent crime in London is perpetuated by young impoverished black men. Shall we just lock them all up? Oh no, of course not. Because that’s racism.

You’re fucking right it’s racism. You are a racist. MOST violent crime in London is not committed by black men.

Once again a TRA showing xir incredibly racist ass on here. Are you the same person who keeps showing up here to accuse mixed race women of wearing fake tan?

The PP is maybe conflating knife crime with all violent crime, and “non-white” with black. Around 2/3 of knife crime in London is committed by non-white people.

fullfact.org/crime/are-majority-youth-knife-offenders-minority-ethnic/

CherryBlossomAutumn · 05/08/2022 22:33

@LK1972 Agreed. When clarity over boundaries becomes fuzzy, then so do the boundaries, and for vulnerable children, particularly those who have experienced or vulneable to abuse, clarity over boundaries is pretty crucial. I don’t know how we got to a stage where a trans person’s upset is deemed more important than basic safeguarding.

Original poster

PoolFloat · 05/08/2022 22:30

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2022 21:15

They had been using that since the original 'coming out of a cubicle in a towel' incident.

Does that mean the women in your mum's group have already complained and that was the agreed arrangement? The school just need to insist on it then if so.

I'm not entirely sure. She was a bit horrified to see 'a man's feet' and then when she went back the next week, her friend said it wouldn't happen again because the person was now using a different changing room. I don't know what triggered that - if the club made a decision, if other women had complained or what.

That happened months' ago and I was going to start a thread then but thought it had been resolved as the club had found a mutually acceptable solution.

It's only this week that the person has returned to the original changing room.

I only get snapshots from my mum - she's a carer for my dad and doesn't like leaving him so she leaves the class early. I assume the person came back into the changing room to get showered and changed in a cubicle like they had before but I don't know that for a fact.

OP posts:

StillHappy · 05/08/2022 22:29

BiscuitLover3678 · 05/08/2022 20:39

I’m assuming this is sarcasm 😂

Show quote history

Not at all. Why would anyone need to walk into a room full of half-naked women to put their swimming hat in a locker? You keep it with you to rinse in the shower at the end of your session.

VestofAbsurdity · 05/08/2022 22:26

Aurora231 · 05/08/2022 20:46

The responses here are crazy, utterly crazy. Do you all realise that you are just giving ammunition to those who shout ‘terf’ whenever a woman raises an objection?
I believe that woman’s rights should not be trampled on but for goodness sake - this person is just minding their own business, enjoying using a swimming pool, using the communal facilities as suggested. For whatever reason they needed to put a swim cap in a locker. Maybe they got confused, maybe there are no lockers in the communal area, maybe they were given a key at reception and it was only for the women’s changing. All of those are infinitely more likely reasons than this person wanting to assault an elderly woman.
Some of you ought to be ashamed of what you have written here - it is transphobic and I don’t use that term lightly.

and the argument that most assaults against women are perpetuated by men. Ok well most violent crime in London is perpetuated by young impoverished black men. Shall we just lock them all up? Oh no, of course not. Because that’s racism.

I believe most transgender people have much more difficult lives than any of us can ever understand. That doesn’t mean that biological males should compete in female sports, or go to female prisons. But it a trans woman wants to quickly put a swim cap in a locker, ffs.

Maybe the moon is made of green cheese.

I don't give a flying fuck if someone out there in Twittersphere thinks I am a TERF, so what?

VestofAbsurdity · 05/08/2022 22:18

Dreamwhisper · 05/08/2022 19:47

The numbers of trans people - people identifying as women and having a brain more similar to women then men is very very very unlikely to want to attack your mother for wanting a swim. This is what people used to say about lesbians - as most attacks on women are those who are attracted to women. Utter crap.

Ugh this is what my brain is CONSTANTLY swinging back and forth between.

My heart is pulled both ways. Surely the only safe way forward is single spaces for any vulnerable activity - dressing, toileting, all of that.

The brain crap just posted is just that crap. How regressive and misogynistic to parrot the lie of a lady brain, a lie that led to women being denied an education in the not too distant past, and much more. How fucking insulting, anyone who spouts this nonsense is no better than the White Supremacists who spout the same thing about the brains of black people.

The safe way forward is that people use the spaces and services for their sex, if that is a problem for some males then they can campaign for additional, separate spaces that better meet their needs.

And I do still think this is what I can't get over. What about transwomen who have spent large proportions of their lives on hormones, or have had gender reassignment surgery?

What about them? They are not women, they are not female if they don't like the spaces provided for their sex campaign for additional alternatives to be provided.

Stop prioritising their wants over women's needs, stop trying to give away spaces and services for women and disregarding the women who need those spaces and services, stop excluding women who need those spaces and services to access society, stop being a misogynist and pandering to men, stop overriding a woman's no, stop forcing consent onto women who do not consent. My no overrides your yes every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

There are so many trans people that I look up to and respect, and some that I just see are vulnerable people themselves. I absolutely refuse to "not give a shiny shit" about them and I refuse to hold the belief that there's "no such thing" as being transgender.

No-one has said there is no such thing as transgender, what is being said is there is no such thing as a person able to change their sex.

LK1972 · 05/08/2022 22:07

CherryBlossomAutumn · 05/08/2022 22:03

I have an autistic son and teaching him boundaries is incredibly important I feel, both for his and other’s privacy, wellbeing and safeguarding. How can I teach him this when adults will be trampling over boundaries? It’s not just girls and women all this confusion affects.

Quite, I think it's important to teach children correct risk assessment, based in a stranger's (or not) sex.

Especially when they are neurodiverse.

Because we know, statistically, it IS different.

I taught my kids when they were small - if you're lost ask a policeman or a woman with kids for help.

Never men, strangely

CherryBlossomAutumn · 05/08/2022 22:03

I have an autistic son and teaching him boundaries is incredibly important I feel, both for his and other’s privacy, wellbeing and safeguarding. How can I teach him this when adults will be trampling over boundaries? It’s not just girls and women all this confusion affects.

BoredofthisCrap7 · 05/08/2022 22:01

Of course it's all about the other women, not the actual physical space. As has been proven time and time again.

A space is just an empty room without "other women" there to give validation to their belief.
Hey, they're just one of the girls!
But without other women there to accept them, they're just a sad man in a room.

That's a big part of the reason why I believe third spaces would never work.
It's missing the all important validation.

They don't want their own spaces. They want our spaces.
And if you think that's hyperbole, watch a few select Youtube videos with TW gloating about intimidating women in the female bathrooms.

LK1972 · 05/08/2022 22:00

HooverIsAlwaysBroken · 05/08/2022 21:43

I never thought about these issues when it was only me. Then I had an ageing mother and now daughters.

and some “kind” people want to consent on behalf of my vulnerable loved ones to be “kind” without considering that it may cause distress. I am so over it.

Yes, I think many women on this board are coming from the same position, even though my daughters (thus probably my mother) are older than yours

DarkDayforMN · 05/08/2022 21:58

Ok well most violent crime in London is perpetuated by young impoverished black men. Shall we just lock them all up? Oh no, of course not. Because that’s racism.

You’re fucking right it’s racism. You are a racist. MOST violent crime in London is not committed by black men.

Once again a TRA showing xir incredibly racist ass on here. Are you the same person who keeps showing up here to accuse mixed race women of wearing fake tan?