Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

@CrowUpNorth I also don’t buy this. I do recall sometimes snidey homophobic ‘jokes’ about lesbians or gay men in single sex spaces, but no movement that was in uproar about this in any serious way. There was never anything that worried anyone enough to suggest that single cubicle bathrooms or changing rooms were needed because of the ‘threat’ of gayness. There was no mass hysteria or any proposed action. It’s also fundamentally different, a lesbian was not insisting that they go into a man’s changing room, or insisting their own special facility, they just carried on using the facilities of their own sex.

So really I don’t know what you are talking about.

@SpecialABC That is all assumptions and I don’t buy it. Autistic people have empathy and can follow rules, perhaps more than most NT people. Autistic men, however they identify, do not need to go into a woman’s space in order to enhance their mental wellbeing. Autistic people are just as respectful of privacy as anyone else, no different, and I think it’s demeaning to say that they are not as capable of respecting single sex spaces as anyone else.

I was a teenager in the 80's and I do not remember any discussion about keeping lesbians out of changing rooms or any movement formed to do so. None.
I think this is something trans activists have made up. Again.

Those of us who are not so young will remember similar complaints about lesbians in showers at schools or gyms, and tabloids filled with stories about 'predatory lesbians in sports clubs like Martina Navratilova. As PPs have pointed out lesbians and bi women are no physical risk to us but there were still a lot of angry voices about privacy and dignity (which is what gives the legal justification for SS spaces). I think a lot of us have sympathies because -many- of the same things said about trans people were said about LGB a generation ago (and before that with race segregation). Obviously there are also some very objective differences

In this case the transwoman was using a locker. There is clearly some private space she changes in, but are all the lockers in the two single sex areas?

Women then offer alternatives or ways in which women’s privacy and trans ‘wants’ can both be accommodated. Trans and allies say that this is not good enough and upsets a trans mental wellbeing.

Women's mental well being is, of course, irrelevant and dismissed out of hand.

Trans and allies say this is because they are not being validated as a woman.

Rarely is it ever admitted that validation is the goal, but they are happy for women and girls to be used in this way which says an awful lot about them and none of it flattering.

Part of the problem is that transwomen are very often vulnerable, quite often autistic and they feel excluded by men and feel great relief in 'finding their true identity '. On an individual level I know a transwoman who's life has been transformed by transitioning. However transwomen are being given unrealistic expectations with very powerful voices telling them TWAW and feeding in all the 'your body is female because you feel female ' ideas. They then have their hopes dashed when their fantasy world is punctured by being told they can't access safe single sex female spaces. Transwomen would experience a lot less negativity if they could just be honest and take ownership of their trans identity. I feel genuine sympathy for many transwomen who just want to be accepted but I also have to stand up for my rights as a woman and for all women and girls and keep our boundaries which are determined very simply by biology.

Argh, sorry, was trying not to @ you, Fieldofgreycorn!

Fieldofgreycorn
If she still has male genitalia then yes she should be in an individual area. If post op, no one should be making assumptions about whether someone is trans or not anyway according to the EHRC.

That sounds like you're suggesting genital checks for entrance to the changing rooms. Which would be inhumane- and just so unnecessary for a swimming pool!

Much easier to have a blanket "No males in the female changing room" rule, instead of the "If you show us that you've had your penis surgically removed, you can come in" rule you seem to be suggesting.

@Fieldofgreycorn

Should say trans people, not just trans.

Yes it goes around in circles.

Women say that they don’t want their privacy and boundaries eroded. Trans and allies say that is transphobic.
Women say they have respect for trans rights not be discriminated against, but that this is a single sex space, and women also have rights to be respected. Trans and allies ignore that - and move on to why should we respect women’s rights to privacy, because there is no privacy to respect (cue but there are single cubicles, but there are mixed spaces, but it’s only women who have been abused).
Women justify their with to privacy for numerous reasons. Trans and allies ignore and dismiss.
Women then offer alternatives or ways in which women’s privacy and trans ‘wants’ can both be accommodated. Trans and allies say that this is not good enough and upsets a trans mental wellbeing. Trans and allies say this is because they are not being validated as a woman.
Women say that a man is not a woman, however they identify. Trans and allies again say that this is transphobic.

From what I see, the only people listening in this debate are the women. The only ‘rights’ or ‘wants’ that are being listened to are trans. This will never, ever get resolved until trans and allies actually start to listen…

I wish they'd at least have the guts to just admit it.

It would make a refreshing change @wellhelloitsme .

I think you'll find it's because male feelings are deep and important whereas female feelings are irrational, unimportant and mostly motivated by our prissy bigotry...

Staggering isn't it?

Nobody answers this question. Ever.

I suspect it's because it would involve them outright admitting that they prioritise the feelings of male bodied people over those of female bodied people.

I wish they'd at least have the guts to just admit it.

@FatAgainItsLettuceTime and why not, you go for it after all it's the identity that counts.

Well @VestofAbsurdity we wouldn't want to risk 'othering' them would we?

They are not 'other' they have declared themselves women and that's how it works, they declare something and it becomes truth.

Oddly, I declared myself 20 years younger, slim and rich the other day and no one has ID checked me when buying wine, or hit on me in the street or invited me to a country club so I'm feeling pretty fucking pissed off if I'm honest, it's like 'they' aren't seeing my real identity.

Have been considering identifying as a toddler as when really examining my feels I've determined that I don't feel like the kind of person who should be working or taking responsibility for things, I identify more as a person who is cared for and gets to have what I want, when I want and an afternoon nap so really I do feel that I identify more with 2 yr olds than 38 yr olds. I will of course be attending parent and toddler sessions at the pool and my DH will need to change my nappy in the changing rooms. I don't anticipate that anyone will have a problem with me hanging out with their kids or playing with them in the softplay because that's what 2 yr olds do and I will be a 2 yr old LITERALLY be a 2 yr old because that is how I have identified and as we see from the allies on this thread how I identify that's precedence over anyone else's feelings and should be accepted without question.

Most of what they are saying @MrsSteveMcDonald is that women are not allowed to have spaces catering to their needs for safety, privacy, dignity and comfort, men's wants trump all of that. Women's value is to be kind, be submissive, be welcoming - remembering always that the men who want to access their spaces are just so oppressed and have had such a hard time and just can't be expected to share with those of the same biological sex as them or indeed in an additional separate space provided for their exclusive use because well then they wouldn't be removing women's boundaries and forcing them to bow down and pander to them. Women as service humans, human shields and collateral damage. Nice.

As I said misogynist as fuck and no thought or consideration for women, men are their priority - exclude women, upset women, make women uncomfortable, feel unsafe, unhappy? - they couldn't give a toss.

@Dreamwhisper even purported to care about women and girls feelings - yeah right they do.

For those saying that the transwoman did nothing wrong and should be allowed in with the women, are you saying that the changing facilities should be single gender rather than single sex?

And yet, had you read the thread, you’d understand that that’s not the case.

Good point. Those stats, from the USA, show the violence is largely against TW prositutes. Female prostitutes are also at risk of violence from clients or pimps — it’s a high-risk occupation. So, very little relevance to changing rooms.

A useful and wise approach to a thread is to read the full facts before commenting, otherwise you have a tendency to look rather silly.

Why are natal women's feelings less important than those of trans women who wish to use single sex women's spaces?

@wellhelloitsme this is another one of those questions that despite being asked repeatedly never gets answered, the lack of answer speaks volumes.

@clpsmum

So this would be a big open plan space with some benches right?

Women, girls, men, boys all come out of the showers, strip their toggs off, dry off and put on dry clothing in the open plan space right?

I regularly visit 3 different gyms. None have private changing cubicles.