Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

I agree that more is needed. However, how is the data to be collected when crimes committed by transitioned males are recorded in official statistics as female crimes?

And in media as female crimes? Or not at all.

The very fact we have had women disaggregating the infomation at record level is a sign of how badly women have been treated by the policymakers in this regard.

Why do you doubt the figures that have been collated by women’s groups and recorded in government consultations without anyone coming forward to disprove them? Do you think that if groups could disprove these figures that they would not have publicly done this quickly?

What is it about those figures that have been presented to the government committees do you dispute exactly?

@Whitehorsegirl

I have been a victim of sexual assaults in my life. They were committed by cis men who lived/presented as men and they were never strangers (this was either so called friends, colleagues and a family member), not drag queens in libraries, not trans women having a swim. Men in my everyday life...

I'm sorry for your experiences and as a fellow survivor I truly mean that

Can you, as someone who has been a victim of sexual assaults, not understand why the potential presence of male bodies people and penises in female only spaces could be hugely upsetting and frightening for other female victims?

If so, why are the feelings of trans women more important than the feelings of women who have been victims of sexual assault and want a safe space in which they can relax safe in the knowledge a male bodied person and penises won't be present?

@Whitehorsegirl

I truly have no idea as to why so many people equate a transgender woman with a predator and seem to convince that share a space with them routinely equals risk. I really don't.

Most men aren't predators but because of the risk presented by some male bodied people, single sex female only spaces exist to safeguard women.

If the argument is 'yes they have a penis but that doesn't mean they're a predator and statistically most of them aren't' then do you fundamentally disagree with the concept of any single sex female only spaces?

@Helleofabore - I am not in Sydney, but Brisbane. I wonder if the changing room situation also depends on how old the pool is? The pool I take my kids to (they are both sexes but late teens, so less of an issue re autonomy, etc) has had a very recent revamp, and it includes the change rooms. I am no young thing. I was born in the early 70’s when there was a very black & white approach to these things. The safety of my kids - physically, emotionally and psychologically is paramount to me, but I am not assuming that trans people are predators. (I worked in the music industry and as a flight attendant and I would say that I have worked with people from every part of every spectrum. I have many friends who identify in every different “category”, who I socialize with still and trust implicitly. I just don’t think my kids need to be anxious because there really are predators who choose to “self identify” to exclude legal liability in these situations. (And all of my friends have experienced the same thing…) There are a few dodgy a-holes giving lots of lovely people a bad name. *Every one of my friends whose gender is ambivalent or fluid chooses to change in gender neutral change rooms or the disabled toilet. They feel safer doing so and would feel like they were vulnerable in a single-sex one.

Thank you for the link!

Sorry- I misread.

Yes we are in agreement.

I have been sexually assaulted by males. I have no idea what their gender identity was, nor do I care. That's the point. Why are you presuming to know what someone's gender identity is? It's not relevant.

I didn’t say you did. I said it was ‘well articulated’ and ‘as opposed to’ - quite literally meaning you didn’t.

I didn’t say this thread. I said ‘threads like these’. It happened on Friday, multiple times, on a similar thread - that’s just one of many examples.

@Didimum

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

tranwomen seems to offend at the same rates as males, looking at the evidence above

@Helleofabore

Could you please post the papers, stats or studies you have found to be most convincing that transitioned males commit violent and sex crimes at lesser rate than other males? I have asked this quite regularly now and nothing has been linked up.
How about any evidence that transitioned males are on average less misogynist than other males?

I’ve too gone looking for this info on occasion. It doesn’t appear as though reliable information is available either way. I wish it were. Perhaps one day it may be.

@speakout

I don't think that is main issue. I don't think transwomen are more or less likely to be predators, but allowing men into female places means predators will be attracted to places where vulnerable, naked women and children are.
Easy pickings, choose a quiet time, where women are likely to be alone, and no one can challenge a man entering a woman's changing room.

This is one of the more well-articulated arguments on threads like these, as opposed to the common descent of posters calling transwomen perverts and pedophiles. The argument boils down to perception of risk, increase of actual risk, significance of that increased risk and whether or not to balance that against the wishes of a minority - perceived by some as being highly discriminated and marginalised, but not by others. Is it justified or not justified?

we should be focusing on the actual perpetrators of domestic violence, sexual assault and the general misogyny/patriarchy poison.

Could you please post the papers, stats or studies you have found to be most convincing that transitioned males commit violent and sex crimes at lesser rate than other males? I have asked this quite regularly now and nothing has been linked up.

How about any evidence that transitioned males are on average less misogynist than other males? Because I have not seen that either in either my direct interaction with them or from reading their writings.

If you genuinely have been convinced that this group of males are different in the areas you mention, I would like to know why.

And up front, I don’t mean stories about your friends. I don’t have any male friends that have committed violent acts or sex crimes against women either, but I am not about to declare that other males are not doing it because those males I have contact with aren’t.

I truly have no idea as to why so many people equate a transgender woman with a predator and seem to convince that share a space with them routinely equals risk. I really don't.

Most don't but males who place themselves in female spaces especially where we are naked/vulnerable do pose a risk do you agree?

As I said earlier, I don't think is all about a threat. No, most men are not a threat, nor are transwomen. However, that's not the whole point, although it's a very valid point as a predatory male can pretend to be a transwoman in order to gain access to women in a vulnerable position.

But lets take threat out of the equation and look at it from just one different, specific point of view, from a different minority group who would also like some understanding. A Muslim woman is not allowed to be undressed in front of ANY person who has a penis (not using the word man since apparently some people think a transwoman is not a man). Why should HER right to undress in a penis-free environment be trumped by a person with a penis's right to go into the same space because they "feel" like a person who doesn't have a penis.

Surely you can see from that point of view why women should be entitled to single SEX spaces? What is your response to this point of view, please? Genuinely interested as to who you now think is being "ganged up on". Are you honestly saying that a transwoman's right trumps a Muslim woman's? A transwoman can use the men's space, whereas a Muslim woman can now not go swimming, just in case. How is that okay?

Can you please not refer to people as “cis”? It’s very offensive.

It is quite simple: if you let male bodied people in who call themselves transwomen, you can't keep male bodied people who call themselves men out.
There is no way to see from looking at a male bodied person if they define themselves cis or trans or non binary or whatever. This is why segregation based on internal feelings cannot work, you cannot police internal feelings.
Bad male bodied people lie. Bad male bodied people are a proven risk to female bodied people. Female bodied people don't want to have to chose between not using communal changing rooms and being excluded from the opportunity to swim or having to strip naked in view of male bodied people.

Inclusion of transwomen in this case is actually exclusion of women, whilst the inclusion of transwomen isn't actually inclusion as they are already included in the male facilities. It is giving them (and all other male bodied people) the additional privilige of being able to choose which facility to use, something women cannot reasonable do. So actually this service provider choses privilige for one group at the expense of exclusion of another. Plain old sexism.

Humor! Ack! I give up.

Just clarifying, that was humid. I read it back and realised it was a bit too close to actual explanations given for comfort.

They're allowed to see womanly accidental innocent semi-e!rections, obviously. Though they would be really rude for looking at them, and would probably be committing a hate crime non crime incident by looking.

HTH.

"I truly have no idea as to why so many people equate a transgender woman with a predator and seem to convince that share a space with them routinely equals risk. I really don't."

I don't think that is main issue. I don't think transwomen are more or less likely to be predators, but allowing men into female places means predators will be attracted to places where vulnerable, naked women and children are.
Easy pickings, choose a quiet time, where women are likely to be alone, and no one can challenge a man entering a woman's changing room.

I am trying to understand this better from your point of view @Didimum and @Fieldofgreycorn .

i think I am trying to be very open.

so my understanding is that you both think that women can get erections?

OK, that is clear. Are you both happy with underaged girls seeing exposed erections?

I mean, this happened at the WiSpa and many people defended the transwoman (unfortunately I believe this particular transwoman was a sex offender, but the concept still stands).

my view (based on sexed body) is that in the cases where we cannot avoid nudity (communal changing rooms etc), male bodies and any potential exposed erections should not be seen by little girls.

do you think little girls should see that?

"I really don't think this is about my rights or my safety being compromised by transwomen"

But some women DO want the right to be in spaces free of men. Why is that not enough?