Page 10 | Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

PoolFloat · 2022-08-05T13:57:27+00:00

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand). The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s. The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so. My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it. Can anyone help please?

CatsAreCrackers · 07/08/2022 11:30

Didimum · 07/08/2022 11:14

This is pitting two minority groups against each other, because you are referring to the religious belief. Where the rights or wishes of two minorities overlap and disagree, that is to be handled appropriately - one minority doesn’t automatically trump another. If you don’t agree that trans people are a minority rightfully entitled to that debate, that’s your opinion.

Show quote history

Thank you for replying and whilst I do have a differing opinion to you, I would like to thank you for engaging as it's always helpful to get a different point of view. I agree, it is pitting two minorities against each other, but that is what it comes down to since women as a whole group must "be kind" and allow men into their space even though it may frighten them to do so.

How could this situation be handled appropriately then? In a situation where there are two changing rooms, one for men and one for women. Two people turn up at the same time. A Muslim woman and a transwoman. How should that be handled? Muslim women already don't take part in a lot of things, especially sport, due to possible conflictions with religious beliefs. This is further eroding their freedom. However, a transwoman has the choice to "be kind" and to use the mens' facilities...

I'm not being sarcastic or argumentative, it's a genuine dilemma. I ask because I live in a very multicultural town. If my gym opened the female changing area to transwomen then I can pretty much guarantee the gym would lose approximately a third of its members.

DarkDayforMN · 07/08/2022 11:29

People can know and love trans people and still want single sex spaces to be single sex unless properly signed otherwise so they can make their own decisions.

And some people may have very strong opinions about the importance of single sex spaces because of the trans people that they know.

Didimum · 07/08/2022 11:25

VestofAbsurdity · 07/08/2022 11:11

After women and girls have been sexually assaulted or the victims of voyeurism, or stop accessing the spaces and services they need in sufficient numbers you mean @Didimum ? What out of interest is the number you would consider sufficient?

It is not solely about safety, it is also about privacy, dignity and comfort for women, I'll ask again, why is any woman's need or desire for that not worthy of consideration? Why are the feelings and desires of men wanting to access single sex spaces and services your priority?

Show quote history

Once again, I said I ‘couldn’t reliably find’, I didn’t say I found numbers insufficient. I actually genuinely thanked helleofabore for the link she provided.

I also didn’t say anything wasn’t worthy of consideration, nor did I say what my priority was. One of my points (not priorities), as given a few pages ago was perception of risk, significance of increase of risk and whether discrimination (again I specified that the discrimination of trans people does not exist to some) is justified or unjustified.

sanluca · 07/08/2022 11:21

This is pitting two minority groups against each other, because you are referring to the religious belief. Where the rights or wishes of two minorities overlap and disagree, that is to be handled appropriately - one minority doesn’t automatically trump another. If you don’t agree that trans people are a minority rightfully entitled to that debate, that’s your opinion.

I think the comment was more about having the debate. Of course we can debate if all communal changing rooms should be mixed sex, even though it would exclude a fairly large part of the group of women who don't want to have to change in full view of any male bodied person who is there as well.

But be honest about it: even though transwomen have adequate facilities provided for them, if they don't want to use those, they should be allowed to use those of the opposite sex if they want to even though it negatively impacts a larger group of people. So more options for male people, less for female people.

This is called sex discrimination btw. It is illegal.

Terfydactyl · 07/08/2022 11:20

Whitehorsegirl · 07/08/2022 09:34

The more I read these threads, the less I get it.

I truly have no idea as to why so many people equate a transgender woman with a predator and seem to convince that share a space with them routinely equals risk. I really don't.

I have been a victim of sexual assaults in my life. They were committed by cis men who lived/presented as men and they were never strangers (this was either so called friends, colleagues and a family member), not drag queens in libraries, not trans women having a swim. Men in my everyday life...

I really don't think this is about my rights or my safety being compromised by transwomen. These threads too me are about ganging up on a minority and wasting time and energy there when we should be focusing on the actual perpetrators of domestic violence, sexual assault and the general misogyny/patriarchy poison.

I have no idea how you cannot see the issue is, if you let a transwoman in, all other men can also come in. Including your brother, your dad, your friends, your colleagues. If any of them want to come in and assault you in your previously safe woman only (cunty type) space.
And then when they assault you you can call the police and be arrested for a hate crime if you call them men.
But you appear to be able to tell who is a real transwoman, want to share that secret with the rest of us?

StillHappy · 07/08/2022 11:17

Didimum · 07/08/2022 11:14

This is pitting two minority groups against each other, because you are referring to the religious belief. Where the rights or wishes of two minorities overlap and disagree, that is to be handled appropriately - one minority doesn’t automatically trump another. If you don’t agree that trans people are a minority rightfully entitled to that debate, that’s your opinion.

Show quote history

Again, you are being dishonest here. A male, however they “identify” has no right to be in a female-only space.

You really need to read and understand the legislation here, as you keep posting outright untruths about it.

Didimum · 07/08/2022 11:14

CatsAreCrackers · 07/08/2022 11:01

@User15

So let me just check, (although I'm guessing you won't reply), you are saying a Muslim woman is being unkind because her religious beliefs dictate she cannot undress in front of a man? So she should just shut up and either go against her beliefs or not go swimming instead so that the transwoman can use the space HE wants to? How about the transwoman is kind and doesn't force an actual woman into an untenable position?

Show quote history

This is pitting two minority groups against each other, because you are referring to the religious belief. Where the rights or wishes of two minorities overlap and disagree, that is to be handled appropriately - one minority doesn’t automatically trump another. If you don’t agree that trans people are a minority rightfully entitled to that debate, that’s your opinion.

VestofAbsurdity · 07/08/2022 11:11

Didimum · 07/08/2022 10:11

@Helleofabore

Could you please post the papers, stats or studies you have found to be most convincing that transitioned males commit violent and sex crimes at lesser rate than other males? I have asked this quite regularly now and nothing has been linked up.
How about any evidence that transitioned males are on average less misogynist than other males?

I’ve too gone looking for this info on occasion. It doesn’t appear as though reliable information is available either way. I wish it were. Perhaps one day it may be.

After women and girls have been sexually assaulted or the victims of voyeurism, or stop accessing the spaces and services they need in sufficient numbers you mean @Didimum ? What out of interest is the number you would consider sufficient?

It is not solely about safety, it is also about privacy, dignity and comfort for women, I'll ask again, why is any woman's need or desire for that not worthy of consideration? Why are the feelings and desires of men wanting to access single sex spaces and services your priority?

StillHappy · 07/08/2022 11:10

Didimum · 07/08/2022 11:05

You are entitled to whatever boundary you like. That doesn’t mean that your boundary has to be enshrined in law, social contracts, or the policies of private or public organisations.

Show quote history

But single-sex spaces absolutely are enshrined in law. One of myriad problems here is that some trans males and their enablers refuse to abide by single-sex rules.

Didimum · 07/08/2022 11:05

FatAgainItsLettuceTime · 07/08/2022 10:58

What a load of utter tripe.

Women do not have to set aside their fears or boundaries to be welcoming to men, what are you going to say next that we should just lay back and think of England if we're not in the mood for sex but our partner wants it cos that would be the polite and kind thing to do.

I do not want to see a naked male who is not my husband and I do not want a naked male who is not my husband to see me.

I am allowed to have that boundary, you cannot take that boundary from me to validate your identity.

Show quote history

You are entitled to whatever boundary you like. That doesn’t mean that your boundary has to be enshrined in law, social contracts, or the policies of private or public organisations.

CatsAreCrackers · 07/08/2022 11:01

User15 · 07/08/2022 10:43

I understand the fear and nervousness - but so many of you are being unkind. Encountering trans women in real life might still be a new or uncommon experience for you. You're taken aback. You've reacted in fear. You're mentally checking your safe and have sufficient control.

It's good you've come on here to talk about it, and think through the situation rather than react unkindly towards a person going about their daily lives.

A trans woman can use women's spaces.

A trans man can use men's spaces.

Everyone can use a unisex changing village (separate cubicles).

In time you'll see there's nothing to fear. They're just people living their life consciously. Be kind. Support safe spaces for the transgender community by sharing the gendered spacing.

Don't be disrespectful to transgender people.

@User15

So let me just check, (although I'm guessing you won't reply), you are saying a Muslim woman is being unkind because her religious beliefs dictate she cannot undress in front of a man? So she should just shut up and either go against her beliefs or not go swimming instead so that the transwoman can use the space HE wants to? How about the transwoman is kind and doesn't force an actual woman into an untenable position?

Helleofabore · 07/08/2022 11:00

User15 · 07/08/2022 10:43

I understand the fear and nervousness - but so many of you are being unkind. Encountering trans women in real life might still be a new or uncommon experience for you. You're taken aback. You've reacted in fear. You're mentally checking your safe and have sufficient control.

It's good you've come on here to talk about it, and think through the situation rather than react unkindly towards a person going about their daily lives.

A trans woman can use women's spaces.

A trans man can use men's spaces.

Everyone can use a unisex changing village (separate cubicles).

In time you'll see there's nothing to fear. They're just people living their life consciously. Be kind. Support safe spaces for the transgender community by sharing the gendered spacing.

Don't be disrespectful to transgender people.

Oh dear.

You must surely realise that some posters have loved ones who are trans? Or maybe even some with trans ex-partners.

Please stop assuming that people posting on FWR just don’t ‘know’ trans people. That is your own prejudice coming through.

People can know and love trans people and still want single sex spaces to be single sex unless properly signed otherwise so they can make their own decisions.

People can know and love trans people and still recognise that all post pubescent males should be treated at the same level of risk and that there are no sub groups that merit separate treatment without very robust data to prove otherwise.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/08/2022 10:58

Same. I am in my fifties and I have never heard anyone suggest that lesbians should not be allowed into all female spaces until the trans arguments surfaced.
Comparing lesbian women to men - homophobia.

I remember real lesbophobia. The woman didn't even have to be lesbian but she was targetted as such. I was targeted when I had a pastoral role in an educational institution. An abusive male spread around that I was a lezzie so that younger women would not tell me of his harassment of them. Similarly, all feminists were 'man-hating lesbians' - said to prevent women from organising.

FatAgainItsLettuceTime · 07/08/2022 10:58

User15 · 07/08/2022 10:43

I understand the fear and nervousness - but so many of you are being unkind. Encountering trans women in real life might still be a new or uncommon experience for you. You're taken aback. You've reacted in fear. You're mentally checking your safe and have sufficient control.

It's good you've come on here to talk about it, and think through the situation rather than react unkindly towards a person going about their daily lives.

A trans woman can use women's spaces.

A trans man can use men's spaces.

Everyone can use a unisex changing village (separate cubicles).

In time you'll see there's nothing to fear. They're just people living their life consciously. Be kind. Support safe spaces for the transgender community by sharing the gendered spacing.

Don't be disrespectful to transgender people.

What a load of utter tripe.

Women do not have to set aside their fears or boundaries to be welcoming to men, what are you going to say next that we should just lay back and think of England if we're not in the mood for sex but our partner wants it cos that would be the polite and kind thing to do.

I do not want to see a naked male who is not my husband and I do not want a naked male who is not my husband to see me.

I am allowed to have that boundary, you cannot take that boundary from me to validate your identity.

Didimum · 07/08/2022 10:58

AlisonDonut · 07/08/2022 10:53

Bless you and your patronising little sermon.

The issue is males. It doesn't matter if they say they are women or not, it is males that are the problem.

Hope that helps your confusion.

Show quote history

She’s not confused. She has a view that it in opposition to yours.

SirVixofVixHall · 07/08/2022 10:53

Apollo442 · 06/08/2022 20:30

I was a teenager in the 80's and I do not remember any discussion about keeping lesbians out of changing rooms or any movement formed to do so. None.
I think this is something trans activists have made up. Again.

Same. I am in my fifties and I have never heard anyone suggest that lesbians should not be allowed into all female spaces until the trans arguments surfaced.
Comparing lesbian women to men - homophobia.

AlisonDonut · 07/08/2022 10:53

User15 · 07/08/2022 10:43

I understand the fear and nervousness - but so many of you are being unkind. Encountering trans women in real life might still be a new or uncommon experience for you. You're taken aback. You've reacted in fear. You're mentally checking your safe and have sufficient control.

It's good you've come on here to talk about it, and think through the situation rather than react unkindly towards a person going about their daily lives.

A trans woman can use women's spaces.

A trans man can use men's spaces.

Everyone can use a unisex changing village (separate cubicles).

In time you'll see there's nothing to fear. They're just people living their life consciously. Be kind. Support safe spaces for the transgender community by sharing the gendered spacing.

Don't be disrespectful to transgender people.

Bless you and your patronising little sermon.

The issue is males. It doesn't matter if they say they are women or not, it is males that are the problem.

Hope that helps your confusion.

Zerogravity · 07/08/2022 10:51

Could you be any more condescending for @user15? My local gym has 2 communal changing rooms, one for each sex and no cubicles. Everyone is welcome in the correct sex changing room. What's wrong with that?

Helleofabore · 07/08/2022 10:51

Didimum · 07/08/2022 10:50

I didn’t say I disputed it. I said I was unable to find it reliably. You said you think ‘more is needed’, so perhaps we share a view there.

I would agree that we do share that view.

Just to clarify. Do you dispute the numbers or not though?

Didimum · 07/08/2022 10:51

Didimum · 07/08/2022 10:50

I didn’t say I disputed it. I said I was unable to find it reliably. You said you think ‘more is needed’, so perhaps we share a view there.

Above was to @Helleofabore . Forgot to tag.

Helleofabore · 07/08/2022 10:50

Fraaahnces · 07/08/2022 10:34

@Helleofabore - I am not in Sydney, but Brisbane. I wonder if the changing room situation also depends on how old the pool is? The pool I take my kids to (they are both sexes but late teens, so less of an issue re autonomy, etc) has had a very recent revamp, and it includes the change rooms. I am no young thing. I was born in the early 70’s when there was a very black & white approach to these things. The safety of my kids - physically, emotionally and psychologically is paramount to me, but I am not assuming that trans people are predators. (I worked in the music industry and as a flight attendant and I would say that I have worked with people from every part of every spectrum. I have many friends who identify in every different “category”, who I socialize with still and trust implicitly. I just don’t think my kids need to be anxious because there really are predators who choose to “self identify” to exclude legal liability in these situations. (And all of my friends have experienced the same thing…) There are a few dodgy a-holes giving lots of lovely people a bad name. *Every one of my friends whose gender is ambivalent or fluid chooses to change in gender neutral change rooms or the disabled toilet. They feel safer doing so and would feel like they were vulnerable in a single-sex one.

It could well be the age of the facility. I am also a queenslander and the pools I have visited there are old too and they were not in Brisbane. But the pools in Sydney are not quite that old, but are probably 15-20 years old.

Again, not one of those pools or female only gyms I used was not open communal female only changing space. The gyms were only about 10 years old. Plus some newish sex segregated beach changing facilities.

It could be a Sydney / Brisbane thing. it doesn’t matter though. Because communal changing rooms for females do exist in Australia as well.

Either way, you must realise that there are those who don’t do as your friends do and that is the issue at hand. If all people were as respectful as your friends, I doubt there would be the number of threads that there are.

Didimum · 07/08/2022 10:50

I didn’t say I disputed it. I said I was unable to find it reliably. You said you think ‘more is needed’, so perhaps we share a view there.

StillHappy · 07/08/2022 10:50

User15 · 07/08/2022 10:43

I understand the fear and nervousness - but so many of you are being unkind. Encountering trans women in real life might still be a new or uncommon experience for you. You're taken aback. You've reacted in fear. You're mentally checking your safe and have sufficient control.

It's good you've come on here to talk about it, and think through the situation rather than react unkindly towards a person going about their daily lives.

A trans woman can use women's spaces.

A trans man can use men's spaces.

Everyone can use a unisex changing village (separate cubicles).

In time you'll see there's nothing to fear. They're just people living their life consciously. Be kind. Support safe spaces for the transgender community by sharing the gendered spacing.

Don't be disrespectful to transgender people.

But it’s fine to be disrespectful to women who want single sex spaces?

No.

You do not get to override women’s rights like this, and no, males do not have the right to use female single-sex spaces. They have no legal right to do so.

speakout · 07/08/2022 10:46

User15 · 07/08/2022 10:43

I understand the fear and nervousness - but so many of you are being unkind. Encountering trans women in real life might still be a new or uncommon experience for you. You're taken aback. You've reacted in fear. You're mentally checking your safe and have sufficient control.

It's good you've come on here to talk about it, and think through the situation rather than react unkindly towards a person going about their daily lives.

A trans woman can use women's spaces.

A trans man can use men's spaces.

Everyone can use a unisex changing village (separate cubicles).

In time you'll see there's nothing to fear. They're just people living their life consciously. Be kind. Support safe spaces for the transgender community by sharing the gendered spacing.

Don't be disrespectful to transgender people.

So basically women should shut up and be nice.

We need to budge up and make room in female only spaces to accommodate men who want to be there.

User15 · 07/08/2022 10:43

I understand the fear and nervousness - but so many of you are being unkind. Encountering trans women in real life might still be a new or uncommon experience for you. You're taken aback. You've reacted in fear. You're mentally checking your safe and have sufficient control.

It's good you've come on here to talk about it, and think through the situation rather than react unkindly towards a person going about their daily lives.

A trans woman can use women's spaces.

A trans man can use men's spaces.

Everyone can use a unisex changing village (separate cubicles).

In time you'll see there's nothing to fear. They're just people living their life consciously. Be kind. Support safe spaces for the transgender community by sharing the gendered spacing.

Don't be disrespectful to transgender people.