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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

World Triathlon will still allow transgender women in the female category

58 replies

MrsJamin · 04/08/2022 09:37

World Triathlon has voted to allow "transgender women" to keep competing in the female category. Trans-identified males will have to lower their testosterone levels for two years rather than one, as is the case now. They must also now wait for at least four years after transitioning if they have previously competed as a male in any sporting competition rather than one. Full story in TheGuardian

Not good enough, World Triathlon! Read the room!😡

OP posts:
MaudeYoung · 04/08/2022 13:41

Why did World Triathlon include an IOC "Human Rights Expert"? There is no human right to participate in sport. I know the IOC likes to say that "sport is a human right" but the IOC is not a law making body.

Nowhere in Human Rights law is it written that participating in sport is a "right".

Read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Read the European Convention on Human Rights

Read the UK Human Rights Act 1998

Dreikanter · 04/08/2022 13:40

puffyisgood · 04/08/2022 13:29

the 48 months thing is slightly problematic.

really, anyone who's a current male competitor and intends to transition ought to be able to serve notice of their intention and then continue to play out the next 48 months as a man. they shouldn't have to give up all competitive sport. that's what the trans lobby always accuses fairness rules of doing but it generally hasn't been true until now.

I think the 48 month rule is there to make it difficult for TW to switch to the female category within triathlon or to jump in from another sporting discipline.

It’s effectively a 4 year ban on competition, possibly during the prime years of an athlete’s career.

World Triathlon can claim that it’s trans inclusive, but it’s actually made it difficult in practice.

I wonder if there is a TW about to emerge at elite level and so this is effectively a policy to hold them off for now.

(Still an awful policy as it doesn’t address the effects of male puberty).

puffyisgood · 04/08/2022 13:29

the 48 months thing is slightly problematic.

really, anyone who's a current male competitor and intends to transition ought to be able to serve notice of their intention and then continue to play out the next 48 months as a man. they shouldn't have to give up all competitive sport. that's what the trans lobby always accuses fairness rules of doing but it generally hasn't been true until now.

Dreikanter · 04/08/2022 13:18

BellaAmorosa · 04/08/2022 13:01

On the other hand, if you've never competed in triathlon before, you effectively evade that requirement.

It will depend how they interpret the “at least 48 months must have elapsed since the Transgender athlete has competed as a male in any sporting competition”.

At grassroots level? Elite level? How diligently will they check?

They will still have to evidence 24 months of suppressed T before being allowed to compete even if they have not competed as a male in any sporting event before.

puffyisgood · 04/08/2022 13:16

Helleofabore · 04/08/2022 11:03

Oh... and Blair Hamilton is asking for people between 18 - 35 in Brighton to sign up for a 'gender' sport study too.

Jesus. Blair Hamilton, the 6 foot something trans goalkeeper. Who presumably doesn't believe her height conveys any advantage at all, despite obvious evidence to the contrary (see below). Maybe she'll try something exotic, like, say, arguing that she gets much worse period pains than female athletes?

goalkeepersanonymous.com/does-height-matter-goalkeepers-in-pl/

BellaAmorosa · 04/08/2022 13:12

NotBadConsidering · 04/08/2022 13:06

And “continuously below 2.5”. How the hell are they going to verify that? A problem conveniently not mentioned. Require weekly blood test results? Because everyone knows an athlete can drop it just the week before a test and resume training when it’s back up again.

True.

Musomama1 · 04/08/2022 13:07

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NotBadConsidering · 04/08/2022 13:06

And “continuously below 2.5”. How the hell are they going to verify that? A problem conveniently not mentioned. Require weekly blood test results? Because everyone knows an athlete can drop it just the week before a test and resume training when it’s back up again.

BellaAmorosa · 04/08/2022 13:01

Dreikanter · 04/08/2022 12:58

It’s kicking the can down the road, but at least that 4 year ban on competing could be a deterrent.

On the other hand, if you've never competed in triathlon before, you effectively evade that requirement.

BellaAmorosa · 04/08/2022 12:59

CatherinaJTV · 04/08/2022 12:36

Good decision - still a very long wait time of 4 years, but that may be less relevant in triathlon than other sports.

Also of course, T levels are not that informative without knowing the T sensitivity of the individual athlete, but at least it's not a "trans-panic" blanket ban. A good step.

It's a terrible decision. Current testosterone levels are irrelevant. The issue is the huge male pubertal advantage from previous bursts of testosterone, initially in utero, then in early years and finally the flood of hormones at puberty, which all create a larger, more powerful and more robust engine for men. The science is clear, even from the studies done by TW Joanna Harper. Male athletic performance advantage is retained even after years of testosterone suppression or taking cross-sex hormones. Puberty cannot be undone.
The athletes, who are directly affected by this, said NO. World Triathlon should have listened to them.

Dreikanter · 04/08/2022 12:58

It’s kicking the can down the road, but at least that 4 year ban on competing could be a deterrent.

Signalbox · 04/08/2022 12:46

but at least it's not a "trans-panic" blanket ban

It's only male trans people who would be banned so hardly a "trans-panic" blanket ban. More of a "man-panic" blanket ban.

CatherinaJTV · 04/08/2022 12:36

Good decision - still a very long wait time of 4 years, but that may be less relevant in triathlon than other sports.

Also of course, T levels are not that informative without knowing the T sensitivity of the individual athlete, but at least it's not a "trans-panic" blanket ban. A good step.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/08/2022 12:30

*Keep out

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/08/2022 12:29

Yes I thought that, it's really just kicking the can down the road and trying to keep as many males as possible. It sends a poor message though, it's cowardly.

Signalbox · 04/08/2022 12:23

It's a cowardly move and really disappointing but I think it could put many men off attempting to compete in the women's category. Maintaining a 2.5 nmol/l testosterone level can't be healthy for males longterm (I'm assuming they will have to do regular tests to show that their levels don't creep up between competitions). And the four year rule will prevent them from competing in the men's and just hopping across to the women's a couple of months later like Bridges recently did.

Realityisreal · 04/08/2022 12:10

Why were trans athletes included and not female athletes? This decision was biased from the outset, the only people disadvantaged by the inclusion of trans athletes weren't even part of the decision making process.

Musomama1 · 04/08/2022 11:33

But what of the spots lost by biological women? Never mind testosterone. Women who can't identify into another group.

Haven't they listened to World Athletics recently? I thought there was some headway on this.

Helleofabore · 04/08/2022 11:03

Oh... and Blair Hamilton is asking for people between 18 - 35 in Brighton to sign up for a 'gender' sport study too.

Helleofabore · 04/08/2022 11:02

Interesting Ada Cheung is going to do her own research into sports.

Let's see who will be involved in that project.... anyone wanting to get their guesses down now?

I reckon I have three Australian males that will be directly involved, if not a study participant, then as in some kind of capacity.

Helleofabore · 04/08/2022 11:00

I notice that David Handelsman was not included in the panel that would have been the counter to Ada Cheung.

And how exactly was this then balanced?

Joanna Harper,
Chris Mosier,
Rachel McBride (non-binary),
Verity Smith,
Patty Actually (?)
Annie Lieberman (non-binary)
and Veronica Ivy

Who was the female sportspeople? Were they not listed because of the hate that would be coming their way?

Or is this yet another unbalanced panel that created 'be kind' policy?

Cattenberg · 04/08/2022 10:52

What age do boys start having an advantage over girls in athletics? Isn’t it while they’re still at primary school?

NotBadConsidering · 04/08/2022 10:43

Among the groups consulted in the last month by World Triathlon are sport scientists including Emma Hilton, Yannis Pitsidalis and Ross Tucker; University experts including Dr. Roger Pielke Jr, Dr. Alun Willims and Dr. Ada Cheung; IOC Human Rights expert Madeleine Pape; IOC advisor Daniel Berezowsky, and transgender athletes including Joanna Harper, Chris Mosier, Rachel McBride, Verity Smith, Patty Actually, Annie Lieberman and Veronica Ivy.

From the World Triathlon website. So it’s clear then. They ignored the scientists, and went with the the activists like Ada Cheung and trans athletes, and also Veronica Ivy.

BellaAmorosa · 04/08/2022 10:37

Nobody will be happy with this.
They think this is a compromise - it isn't. Either fairness or inclusion of men. You can't have both.
Athlete representatives on the board voted no.
No consultation or polling of female athletes.
Ridiculous. Cowardly. Unscientific.

achillestoes · 04/08/2022 10:04

We will win in the end. The evidence is against them and frankly they look silly doing it.

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