Ben Cooper QC - Lawyer of the Week (in the Times)

Are you telling me these lesbians you apparently know agree with LGB Alliance supporter Baroness Nicholson that two women marrying is "degrading" and that lesbians families are neither "natural nor normal" and that there should be a different gay of consent for gay and straight couples? I very much doubt that

I am saying that you don't hold the universal beliefs of LGB people. That many people, most of the population I would expect, are able to agree on some issues and not others and still appreciate the efforts of those who are contributing to progressing the movement.

I am saying that if you only view historic attitudes of people who have made decisions based on the knowledge and the opinions of even LGB people at the time, and without also being able to respect that some people sought to actively find solutions that worked until they were confidence that no harm was done to another group with the law changes, is an extreme view.

I am also saying that cherry picking words and phrases and detaching them from context and simply constantly repeating them is a very poor approach to engagement. And is an indication that you cannot actually process and analyse information with any coherency, or you are simply acting like a zealot for your own reasons.

But mostly, I am saying, that it is up to those lesbians to make up their own minds as to how comfortable they are about the past attitudes of people they have active dialogue with. And that it is up to those lesbians to either include them or not based on in-depth conversations to establish if that person still retains the opinions being ascribed to them, or in fact, ever did.

And maybe hearache you can again tell us how come you have seemingly posited yourself as an expert on what lesbians think and what feminist analysis of issues impacting their sex as a class based analysis is?

Care to tell us?

Strange bedfellows indeed @Helleofabore.

Well now.... the Westboro church supporting Manchester Pride.... And Pride using the slogans and artworks of Westboro Church.

Gosh.... haven't I seen in the past such affiliations being described as allyships by people who are wedded to making extremely bad faith takes on anything about a group they hate?

Is the Westboro Church now supporting Pride in the UK? Loaning its design team and giving activist advice. Blimey!

What was that about condemning bigots, racists and homophobes again @Hearach15 ? And not having them in your circle? Here we have a group at Manchester Pride no less aping their slogans and being praised by the WBC for doing so and not condemning or distancing themselves from that validation - hoist by your own petard somewhat.

Woo hoo @Hearach15 The Westboro Baptist Church are thrilled and supportive of a sign at Manchester Pride which is exactly like one of their signs and slogans just one word changed - aren't you thrilled to be on the same side as one of the most homophobic and racist institutions around! Now what was that about the Christian Far Right again?

So, in hearache's world any rights movement should ignore the needs of anyone who doesn't agree with it. Feminism is renowned for progressing the needs of women and girls, for all females as a sex class. REGARDLESS of whether those other women and girls feel the need for it at the time.

Indeed, in any rights movement including the civil rights movement there are those who don't agree with it. Hearache would have them shunned and excluded from the rights gained no doubt.

Feminism includes women I would be reluctant to piss on if they were on fire but they are as deserving of female rights as I am due to them being female and that's how it should be and must be you don't deny some females rights or don't fight for their rights because you don't like them or the opinions they hold.

Remember vest in Hearache's view:

Hearach15 · Today 10:34

You actually don't need to engage with racist and homophobic women. Just ignore them. Don't invite them anywhere. Condemn and move on.

So, in hearache's world any rights movement should ignore the needs of anyone who doesn't agree with it. Feminism is renowned for progressing the needs of women and girls, for all females as a sex class. REGARDLESS of whether those other women and girls feel the need for it at the time.

It is not a surprise at all to discover that some males simply cannot understand the feminist movement and what feminists actually fight for with any depth.

It is not a surprise at all to discover that some males feels expert enough to speak for lesbians.

It is a surprise to find them constantly posting misogynistic posts on a feminist thread though, and to constantly seek to shame any women who attempt to point out that their view may have flaws incomprehension, logic, and in application.

Feminism is about and for females - all females, the ones you like the ones you don't like, the ones you know, the ones you don't know, the ones whose opinions you share, the ones whose opinions you don't.

What feminism isn't is about or for men, any men whatever they identify as or whatever their feelings are about themselves.

People who include, pander to and elevate men and then declare themselves feminists are anything but.

Please tell us what expertise do you have on lesbian point of view or on feminism Hearache.

You are after all, the one constantly trying to gatekeep who posts on these threads and keep reminding people of their expertise.

Where is YOUR expertise in these areas that you can actually speak with authority on lesbian point of view or feminism.

A person who posts misogynistic posts that seems unable to understand much at all about being a female.

If I remember correctly too, and Hearache can correct me, is not homosexual either. Certainly not a lesbian.

But has had a huge amount to say about what lesbians do and don’t apparently believe…

Who the hell are you to decide who is feminist & who isn’t...

Your twists serve only to show how little nuance you have in your ability to process information and how very polarised your understanding is.

From a feminist point of view I believe two women marrying is a wonderful thing and is no way "degrading".

And the Baroness was concerned how the term ‘marriage’ being used in law would impact the rights and women and girls.

A feminist point of view would look at the ramifications of the law and where conflicts arise, work out solutions.

I don’t have to remind you that there were lesbian feminists concerned about the use of the word marriage as well. We have repeatedly reminded you of that. Which you ignore.

From a feminist point of view I believe two women can raise a child just as well as any straight couple.

And again your simplistic cutting off all the nuance shows you again cannot see this from a child-centred perspective. And you cannot understand that many feminists also take a child centred perspective.

Plus your overly simplistic statement denies the impact on exploited women in the production of eggs and surrogacy.

You cannot detach the exploitation of women from the ‘fertility equality’ agenda.

From a feminist point of view I do not believe that there should be a different age of consent for a woman if she choses to take a female lover instead of a male lover.

This has been mentioned by vest.

Maybe hearache will now answer whether they will vilify publicly here and every social media platform, Peter Tatchell who is well known, although has tried to deny it, for stating not all intergenerational sex involving children is sex abuse… and supported keeping an underage wife together with her adult husband more recently. Amongst other things Tatchell has done and said.

Seems kind of pertinent that hearache finally answers whether they will go vilify Peter Tatchell and others with the same evangelical zeal as they demonise women who disagree with hearache.

From a feminist point of view I do not believe that there should be a different age of consent for a woman if she choses to take a female lover instead of a male lover.

Up until 2001 there was no legislation in the UK concerning age of consent for lesbian sexual acts. So not a different age of consent, there wasn't one at all.

Mr Peter Tatchell's views on some topics remain indefensible.

Oh… here. You forgot to answer…

"You continue to prove you cannot view any of your discussion points from a feminist perspective."

From a feminist point of view I believe two women marrying is a wonderful thing and is no way "degrading".

From a feminist point of view I believe two women can raise a child just as well as any straight couple.

From a feminist point of view I do not believe that there should be a different age of consent for a woman if she choses to take a female lover instead of a male lover.

Anyone who disagrees with me on these points (or defends those who do) are no feminists

Are you telling me these lesbians you apparently know agree with LGB Alliance supporter Baroness Nicholson that two women marrying is "degrading" and that lesbians families are neither "natural nor normal" and that there should be a different gay of consent for gay and straight couples? I very much doubt that.

While we are talking about ‘wins’ and Stonewall and experts.

I am looking forward to seeing a translation of this article.

twitter.com/montserratvano/status/1561070052836884480?s=21&t=Udrg2c8yf8SFFtsHd1bqNA

I guess that Stonewall will claim that a Nobel laureate Developmental Biologist Christiane Nüsslein-Volhard saying there are only two sexes is not ‘expert’ enough in clearing up the misinformation spread by Nancy Kelley’s tweet this week. The one where she quoted : "Modern culture has a vested interest in pretending that only female and male exist because enemies of LGBT people recognise it’s important to erase intersex people in order to uphold homophobia".

twitter.com/nancy_m_k/status/1560163238129680385?s=21&t=Udrg2c8yf8SFFtsHd1bqNA

No Nancy. Medical professionals and scientists tell us that people with differences in sex development can be categorised as male and female quite easily except in extremely rare instances.

But let’s wait for the EMMA article translation and see what an expert says.

(maybe Christiane is also not expert enough for some posters on this thread either though…)

Or are they the wrong type of LGB people?

And from your misogynistic posting on this thread, I would also guess those lesbians telling that OP they are fighting for their word back as anyone who believes a male can be a lesbian would be ignored by you anyway. Because they are female.

I would ‘genuinely’ suggest you go out and talk to more females outside your safe group, because I think you have no idea about what feminism activates for, or what a feminist perspective on rights and protections are for females and children outside your seemingly carefully curated bubble.

Curated because it seems you are intolerant to other’s who don’t share your exact view point. And in the past, I have linked you up to the studies done that show just how intolerant 18-28 year old are vs older people. Yet they fully believe they are the most tolerant in society.

You continue to prove you cannot view any of your discussion points from a feminist perspective.

You absolutely have no idea how to take a child centred perspective in anything either. You simply cannot see that you only ever consider important issues impacting children from an adult perspective.

And I mean child-centred, I don’t mean childish.

Oh, and hearache, how did you feel you went on this thread?

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4606346-concept-of-exclusively-same-sex-attracted?page=1

This thread where lesbians are discussing just how horrified at them having their word taken and redefined.

Something Stonewall have been very active in doing?

Did you listen to the lesbian’s there?

You think telling me to ‘genuinely’ go and speak to more LGB people, as if I don’t have LGB people already in my life, is not at all transparent. You only want me to talk to more LGB who agree with you. To be ‘educated’.

How very hypocritical. Have you at anytime listened to and acknowledged those other opinions you have written off within the LGB population? Ever?

Or are they the wrong type of LGB people? The ones you just ignore?

As this thread is completely derailed anyway I want to say well done to @Helleofabore for standing up so resolutely to @Hearach15 absolute shitposting. All I am going to add now is I have been at several family events this week. I have asked probably 200 people if a born male can ever be a woman. I had to give prison examples to maybe 4 of them but every single person stated NO. @Hearach15 your crazy ideology is losing. Most of the people I asked were in their 20s and they think people like you are talking absolute bollocjs

Just coming back to this.

Is that a yes or a no, Hearache?

Do you support the statements about ‘intergenerational’ sex (and more recently underage marriage!) that Peter Tatchell has made?

Yes or no?

Do you hold Peter Tatchell, Jane Fae and Nancy Kelley to the same standard as you are holding Baroness Nicholson?

Continued avoidance indicates that you are indeed a very hypocritical person. And really says all that needs to be said about you and your opinions.