They/Them pronouns but gender conforming

You know how address this?

By being good at my job and utterly professional whilst being a woman. Being gender non-conforming hasn't affected my career in the slightest, but being female (not feminine) has its impact. I've also suffered sex discrimination and maternity discrimination. Can't identify out of that. So I stood up for myself instead and tried to change the system for future employees. My sex has affected my earning, my hairstyle and work wear hasn't.

Being 'non-binary' is rejecting your sex. If you accept your sex we are told again and again you are cis. Non-binary is outside the 'male/females' binary. If you accept your sex and reject sex stereotypes that does not make you non-binary.

Do you think the difference in experience between a femme lesbian and a butch lesbian really amounts to persecution, in the UK? Can you opt out of homophobia by growing your hair and wearing some heels?

Your last paragraph is just bullshit. Women who don't want to do those things don't want what those things are offering - otherwise they'd go. Women aren't cast out of society and crying alone in their caves if they don't live a certain way. They just do things their/a different way. Parent and teacher meetings aren't a female thing, what is a stereotypical female conversation? Examples please? If being gender non-conforming means not going to toddler and baby groups than by christ we are giving women a tiny tiny tiny tiny box to be 'conforming' in. Give me strength.

Why wouldn’t you support another’s right to an inner life?

Your inner life is nothing to do with me. I am not your support human.

Ms, Mrs are courtesy titles referring to women. Pronouns are descriptions of what the speaker observes. By insisting that I pretend that I have seen a man when the person I saw was female, you are insisting that I lie.

God almighty you talk a load of crap @Discovereads

Inner life of a woman who uses they/their pronouns? Do me a favour.

And comparing it to Judaism is frankly offensive.

Gender is all about one’s inner life.

In which case, why this requirement for other people to affirm it?

Affirmation is a form of support. Why wouldn’t you support another’s right to an inner life?

So there would be no visually observable outer difference.

So why expect others to behave as though there was?

Requesting different pronouns is not asking other behave as if there were an observable outer difference. Just like a woman requesting to be called “Ms” has no visible outer difference compared to a woman requesting to be called “Mrs”, but still we respect their wishes to be called how they prefer

Gender is all about one’s inner life.

In which case, why this requirement for other people to affirm it?

So there would be no visually observable outer difference.

So why expect others to behave as though there was?

Might as well ask what is the difference between a Jewish woman and a Christian woman?

The Jew would not expect the Christian to refrain from eating pork in her presence and the Christian would not expect the Jew to bless herself with holy water on entering the church as a guest at the Christian's wedding.

Yes, take one for the team. Or join the armed forces, they actually prefer females to not wear make up or heels. Fresh faced with combat boots is the uniform.

Gender is all about one’s inner life. So there would be no visually observable outer difference. Might as well ask what is the difference between a Jewish woman and a Christian woman?

Several studies have been done showing that gender nonconforming women are viewed as unprofessional in the workplace for things like not wearing makeup, certain hair styles, not wearing heels, wearing masculine work wear, being too assertive, etc. It affects their ability to work and earn on par with their experience and qualifications.

What can be done about that? To my mind the best thing is women like this (me, petite so not butch but never makeup and always flat shoes) is to just keep buggering on being good at your job and going for promotions. Create a new normal, that's how prejudice will be overcome.

(And be a bit more savvy about your career if you can, I'm definitely not a role model for that)

What's the difference between a woman who is gender conforming and uses she/her pronouns and one who uses them/them ones @Discovereads?

So the woman in the original example gets to opt out of all this sex based gnc oppression by ‘dressing the part’ AND gets to declare how special and different she is from all the other women in dresses.

Talk about having your penny and your bun.

If you don't identify with the stereotypes, then say that

That is what she said though.

Rejecting being a woman is rejecting your sex

But she didn’t reject the fact she is a woman.

I'm about as gender non-conforming as they come for females (appearance wise), what persecution should I be on the look out for?
Serious question? What are the risks I am taking?

Several studies have been done showing that gender nonconforming women are viewed as unprofessional in the workplace for things like not wearing makeup, certain hair styles, not wearing heels, wearing masculine work wear, being too assertive, etc. It affects their ability to work and earn on par with their experience and qualifications.

Stereotypes regarding lesbians can also mean if a woman looks “butch” she can become a victim of homophobic violence (whether or not she is actually a lesbian or bi).

Societal ostracising can occur for women who do not do usual female designated things like attend mum and baby groups, do parent-teacher things at school, show interest in stereotypically female conversational topics when socialising, and so on.

Oh come the fuck on.

I'm about as gender non-conforming as they come for females (appearance wise), what persecution should I be on the look out for?
Serious question? What are the risks I am taking?

If you don't identify with the stereotypes, then say that and live your life that way.
Rejecting being a woman is rejecting your sex, otherwise what you are saying are the stereotypes and womanhood are inextricably linked, which of course, they fucking aren't.

«My work have just done a promotion drive specifically for minority groups or more specifically anyone 'who identifies as' BAME, gay, queer, trans or disabled (their words, not mine).»

so you CAN identify as BAME 🤷🏽‍♀️
who knew?

I identify as a penguin today, I think. Will Get my tuxedo ready for that.
pronouns Peng/Guin.

She’s not saying she doesn’t identify with being a woman. She’s saying she doesn’t identify with society’s expectations (of women), which is just another way of saying gender expectations, roles and stereotypes created by society for women.

And I would hope you understand the concept of fitting in as a protective mechanism? So dressing in a way society deems normal for her sex is often to avoid persecution for being gender nonconforming and nonbinary.

I'd be interested to know how much putting they/them next to your name increases a woman's chance of being given a job/grant/commission in the arts at the moment.

What a lot of autocarrots! Flavour of crisps, not crisis, and requiring me to engage with it by dictating how I should refer to you is extremely controlling.

I know someone who is female, married to a man with two children and dresses in fairly identifiably"women's" clothing. But she identifies as non-binary (prefers they/them pronouns but not offended by she/her) as she doesn't feel she identifies with society's expectations of women so would rather not identify as a specific gender

'Woman' isn't a gender though so why would she need to identify as anything?

Why don't these women fight against the sex role expectations without resorting to going along with the absurd notion that these stereotypes are the things that actually make you a woman?

I don't actually care how you identify. You do you. I don't care how you identify, just like I don't care what your sexuality is, or what your favourite flavour of crisis is. Unless we're going to be in a relationship, none of that is any of my business. So requiring me to engage with it by disaster goes I should refer to you is extremely controlling.

('You' isn't necessarily you, it's anyone.)

The two are unrelated. This individual simply wants to control others. After all, everyone's doing it, so why shouldn't she/he/they/ze/whatever. You should be grateful that you're being given the opportunity to demonstrate how Kind you are.

This 100%

I am old enough to have been unique being ms, and have had many many battles with bureaucracy wanting to know if I was miss or mrs (answer…none of your business, you don’t need to know if a man is married or not so why is it important if I am?).

I kind of see it that way. Whether I identify as male, female or something different is actually irrelevant to you, therefore the default surely is they/them. I realise there is a political point here, but quite simply we are all just people. Unless of course I identify as a Vulcan I suppose.

In my opinion using them/they without any other changes in your identity is simply a political statement. It says: I reject the expectations of my sex.

Well, two things, it also means: I am special

I personally think it's a red flag, but Im a Gen Xer, maybe millennial see it more as a fashion accessory

It is not true that gendered clothes dont matter or don't mean anything.

They don't matter in the sense that they dont change or determine your sex, which is a biological reality.

But they do matter and they do mean something in other ways. What we wear, and how we present ourselves, is a communication tool. That's why we wear uniforms, brands, ceremonial robes etc. When I choose what I put on in the morning I am choosing to express something something about me to the world. This could be many things: "I have authority" "I am wealthy" "I have power" "I have a professional job" "I am here to serve you" "I am sexually available" "I follow trends" "I'm not interested in sex" "I value my comfort above all" "I belong to a tribe" "I want to break stereotypes" "I need to conform"....etc etc but above all through human life, the way we dress says something very specific (apart from showcasing wealth or status). It says I am this sex (gender??) . And thats important because we dont reproduce via osmosis, we need someone from the opposite sex, so we need to identify who these individuals are. After that we need to be more sophisticated and identify the fertile ones,. the ones that will bear offspring and look after it. This is just super basic. This is why women and men dress differently throughout history and culture and why we emphasise those features that make us available. The other other crucial reason is that our bodies are different because our sexes are different. Women have traditionally worn skirts that made peeing squatting quite easy!

This is why the very first thing you do when you want to live like the opposite sex, is change your clothes. You dont ask for a pay rise, or stop buying birthday cards for all your family... you put some jeans or some lipstick on.

That doesnt mean that women cease to be women if they cease to wear stereotypically female clothes. In that sense, clothes dont matter because they dont change biology. You can present yourself however you want and still be a man or a woman. But you can not deny the importance of appearance as a communication tool. It is important

They think they’re escaping gender stereotypes but actually are too busy navel-gazing to realise they’re actually still paying them reverence. By looking at ‘man gender’ and ‘women gender’ and comparing themselves with those, they’re just promoting the very thing they think they’re escaping.

Live your life and toss gender expectations in the bin. I thought we’d done that decades ago, but apparently some idiots have taken them out again 🙄

My work have just done a promotion drive specifically for minority groups or more specifically anyone 'who identifies as' BAME, gay, queer, trans or disabled (their words, not mine).

I mean, the temptation to reveal my non binary status was strong.