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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Harry miller arrested

464 replies

chilling19 · 28/07/2022 22:16

twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1jMJgemEeybKL

OP posts:
DarkDayForPearlClutchingVipers · 29/07/2022 22:48

Re Ship of Theseus - I know it as 'my grandfather's axe'

LordLoveADuck · 29/07/2022 22:44

DarkDayForPearlClutchingVipers · 29/07/2022 11:29

I find serried ranks of any flag disturbing, frankly.

Even if a flag starts as a joyful celebratory flourish, which the rainbow flag certainly did way back when, the uniformity and repetitive pattern soon looks authoritarian and intimidating.

Never thought about that but I agree about there being something authoritarian about this type of flag, namely everyone assigned an identity and everything ordered and static.

NotBadConsidering · 29/07/2022 22:21

EmmaH2022 · 29/07/2022 14:24

Mangy "I would say there is a cross-over between people who don't get satire and people who think your skin colour should determine your political views."

tough one. I find it's often the people who are most academic and who would say they love satire, who have me labelled by skin colour.

This is identifying but I have been wanting to tell the FWR board for a while so....

I had a bizarre conversation with a 20 something about Trigger's broom. I thought she was trolling me. It took a while to establish that she wasn't.

To sum up, She believes what Trigger believes about the broom, amd now sees figurative as literal. Yes, she is at uni.

Trigger’s Broom is a version of the thought experiment the Ship of Theseus.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

To be fair to the 20 something, her position is a philosophical position that has been argued since 500BC.

That's why, to me, it’s the greatest joke in television of all time. It takes a concept of 2500 years of philosophical debate, applies it to a Peckham road sweeper, has a laugh at his expense, but maybe he’s smarter than all of them?🤣

IcakethereforeIam · 29/07/2022 22:18

The lights are going off all over Mumsnet!

LordLoveADuck · 29/07/2022 22:14

NotBadConsidering · 29/07/2022 07:35

Dark day for Mumsnet?🤣🤣

You can’t simultaneously dismiss a (false) claim of hyperbole - that TRAs are being considered genocidal - and at the same time decide hyperbolically that such a (false) thing is a “dark day” for an entire site of millions of views.

The Pride Swastika flag is not to say TRAs are genocidal like Nazis (although plenty of them accused Helen Joyce of exactly that 🤨) it’s to say TRAs are authoritarian like Nazis. To which they responded by getting the police to go round and arrest someone they didn’t like 🤔.

If you’re going to object to the satirical flag at least be accurate.

"If you’re going to object to the satirical flag at least be accurate"

Bang on however those who have sacred cows are incapable of exposing their beliefs to satire. I am reminded of Ayatollah Khomeini's statement that "there is no humour in Islam". In his mind and the minds of other true believers, Islam can brook no irreverence whatsoever; an attitude on display on this thread though here regarding a different theology.

Cailleach1 · 29/07/2022 22:06

I think the charges against Man A (chappie who was arrested at his house for re-posting the meme) have been dropped. Makes you think what those women who were living with the stress of charges for months on end. Women who were so bold as to call out an ideology that proclaims men to be women if they so wish. And, the prolonged stress visited on Marion Millar; who had the temerity to fasten a ribbon in public.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/07/2022 21:59

Thelnebriati · 29/07/2022 21:54

This is possibly the most bonkers thread I've ever read on Mumsnet.

It's Friday so I shall allow myself to indulge in a challenge to that claim.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3386868-AIBU-to-be-livid-how-dolphins-are-portrayed-compared-to-how-they-are

achillestoes · 29/07/2022 21:58

@JemimaPuddlegoose

I’m sorry you feel this way. I know you’ve posted here a long time. I have to say this honestly, though: the current model of looking at everything through the lens of identity is dangerous. I can’t see a single example of anyone here caring that you are Jewish. Honestly. But you appear to think it’s the most relevant thing. Why?

Thelnebriati · 29/07/2022 21:54

This is possibly the most bonkers thread I've ever read on Mumsnet.

Terfydactyl · 29/07/2022 21:27

antelopevalley · 29/07/2022 15:20

I assume he was getting in the way of the police officers doing their job.

Oh the fucking irony.

Helleofabore · 29/07/2022 21:05

Maybe we can get some links to posts on FWR that that were overtly homophobic (claiming that teenagers can't be gay and that people are only gay if they've been groomed into it) too?

I don’t recognize these types of posts being made by regular FWR posters. Maybe they are made by visitors to the board?? Is that what you meant?

MangyInseam · 29/07/2022 20:53

No one screamed anything about your being Jewish. They objected to your total fabrication of the contents of a book.

VestofAbsurdity · 29/07/2022 20:42

As a matter of interest @JemimaPuddlegoose did you find the picture of the flags on regent Street reminiscent of anything? The Pride Swastika post was originally a response to that image and the underlyingTRA authoritarian behaviour and tactics, I can see why it was done, can you not?

Secondly, you made a serious allegation against Helen Joyce and despite being asked to substantiate it have not done so and several posters have provided evidence from her book that contradicts what you allege.

IcakethereforeIam · 29/07/2022 20:26

@JemimaPuddlegoose I thought I recognised your name from other threads. I'm sorry you're upset and feel attacked but I am honestly confused about the allegations you make in your 20.01pm post. I don't remember reading anything like that. Did you have the posts taken down or were they on other threads?

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/07/2022 20:22

@JemimaPuddlegoose I've searched on some of your phrases and can't find them. This might be attributable to MN's broken advanced/search function.

If you would link to them here or give the time stamp then I'm sure a number of people would report them. Have you reported them to MNHQ?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 29/07/2022 20:22

JemimaPuddlegoose · 29/07/2022 20:01

Why the extreme hostility and hate towards Jewish GC women?

I've been a regular poster on Mumsnet for nearly ten years, and a regular poster in Feminist Chat for years. I've even met other posters irl when attending rallies and other GC events. I've contributed to many threads about Jewish life and culture on MN and frequently fight against antisemitism.

Yet the second I mention that I'm Jewish, people start screaming at I'm a liar, accusing me of being a troll, "crying antisemitism", that I "hang out with transactivists" (I've never met a "transactivist" in my life and I certainly don't "hang out with TRA").

All solely and purely because I am Jewish.

Ask yourself what agenda is being pushed, in promoting the swastika and orchestrated hate pile-ons against Jews?

Personally I don't believe that the posters posting Jew-hate are posting in good faith. I believe they are TRA trolls trying to get screencaps for Twitter so they can prove that MN / GC movement is full of racists.

you sound unhinged, and frankly paranoid

are you OK?

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 29/07/2022 20:15

accusing Jews of "playing the antisemitism card"

Oh, you have supplied a quote! It is a quote, right? That's what quote marks mean. Where in the thread was that said?

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 29/07/2022 20:13

Personally I don't believe that the posters posting Jew-hate are posting in good faith.

Could you please link to the Jew-hate? Or at least quote it. I've seen people say that you weren't posting in good faith, which seems to be nothing to do with you saying that you're Jewish. I saw you called a liar because you drastically misrepresented Helen Joyce's book.

I don't think anyone's "promoting the swastika." Did it escape you that the people who rotated the image of the "Progress" flag don't like the flag or what it represents? They aren't promoting it. And where are orchestrated hate pileons against Jews happening?

Unless they know you, people are not going to judge you on your post history or previous meetups but only going to go off what you write in the thread here.

JemimaPuddlegoose · 29/07/2022 20:08

LaughingPriest · 29/07/2022 14:25

I think as a general rule of thumb, if you have a message you want to be taken seriously, whatever it is, leave swastikas out of it.

On all sides, whoever you are. At worst they are genuinely offensive to many, at best it's a lazy trope that has almost become meaningless. Think of a better way to convey your message than swastikas.

I like and enjoy satire. I think satire is nearly always better if swastikas are not involved. I think the only joke I can think of that is funny that involves Nazi imagery is that Father Ted episode, purely because it's so ridiculously overblown.

They have become, culturally, a blunt attempt to troll.

Well said.

The people defending swastikas and accusing Jews of "playing the antisemitism card" are racist. Period.

JemimaPuddlegoose · 29/07/2022 20:01

Why the extreme hostility and hate towards Jewish GC women?

I've been a regular poster on Mumsnet for nearly ten years, and a regular poster in Feminist Chat for years. I've even met other posters irl when attending rallies and other GC events. I've contributed to many threads about Jewish life and culture on MN and frequently fight against antisemitism.

Yet the second I mention that I'm Jewish, people start screaming at I'm a liar, accusing me of being a troll, "crying antisemitism", that I "hang out with transactivists" (I've never met a "transactivist" in my life and I certainly don't "hang out with TRA").

All solely and purely because I am Jewish.

Ask yourself what agenda is being pushed, in promoting the swastika and orchestrated hate pile-ons against Jews?

Personally I don't believe that the posters posting Jew-hate are posting in good faith. I believe they are TRA trolls trying to get screencaps for Twitter so they can prove that MN / GC movement is full of racists.

ScreamingMeMe · 29/07/2022 19:59

Cailleach1 · 29/07/2022 19:58

I thought the unknown man A (at whose house several police arrived in order to arrest him, or make him pay a fine and enrol on a presumably ideological re-education course) only re-posted the picture of the arrangement of the flags. Possibly probably wrong, but I didn't think he was the first to lay four of them in that arrangement and post the image.

Now, who designed the flags which seem to be designed to form this pattern when four are laid out? Lorry load of police there next.

Yes, that's my understanding too.

Cailleach1 · 29/07/2022 19:58

I thought the unknown man A (at whose house several police arrived in order to arrest him, or make him pay a fine and enrol on a presumably ideological re-education course) only re-posted the picture of the arrangement of the flags. Possibly probably wrong, but I didn't think he was the first to lay four of them in that arrangement and post the image.

Now, who designed the flags which seem to be designed to form this pattern when four are laid out? Lorry load of police there next.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/07/2022 19:41

Baaaaaa · 29/07/2022 19:13

That at least I find a bit reassuring. I prefer deluded naivety to willful power mongering. I doubt many of the people who fell for natzism and communist regimes were aware either though.

It's a little disturbing that there were a number of people in power, including well-regarded intellectuals, who thought some of the notorious experiments were worth doing.

Giles Udy's interview and his book, 'Labour and the Gulag: Russia and the Seduction of the British Left,' give a chilling account of what happened to the kulaks and what Labour was prepared to tolerate as a 'worthwhile experiment' (cf George Strauss in the debate).

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-ecclesiastical-history/article/abs/labour-and-the-gulag-russia-and-the-seduction-of-the-british-left-by-giles-udy-pp-xxvii-660-incl-12-ills-and-1-map-london-biteback-publishing-2017-30-978-1-78590-204-8/E3359DA8F21EEFF1AAF48E2CB3D32919

"In January 1930, the New Statesman reported that dekulakisation was a "cruel experiment" involving "imprisonment and execution." Over the next two years, 1.8 million kulaks were arrested and deported to the North. Some 240,000 died. By 1931, 60,000 Russians had been arrested on religious grounds and 5,000 shot. The exact numbers may not have been known in the West, but the basic facts of Soviet mass murder, disenfranchisement, and slave labour were available to any literate Briton by the end of the 1920s.

More than a million people in Europe took part in "Prayers for the Persecuted" in 1930, effectively a mass protest again Russian barbarism towards the clergy. The Soviets’ use of unpaid prison labour to produce timber in the unbearable conditions of northern Russia was well documented and led many countries to boycott Russian timber in the 1920s. British sailors travelling to northern Russia saw the conditions with their own eyes, and numerous stowaways and escapees were able to provide the grim details. The evidence was there for those who had eyes to see.

Not everybody did. Timber made in gulags was illegal under the Foreign Prison-Made Goods Act of 1897 and the Labour Party had taken a strong stand against "sweated goods" when they were in opposition in the mid-1920s. And yet the Labour Party did not ban it once they were in power (the Conservatives finally did so in 1933), and many on the British Left refused to accept the evidence of brutality, starvation, and mass shootings long after the evidence was overwhelming."

www.acton.org/publications/transatlantic/2017/11/03/book-review-labour-and-gulag-russia-and-seduction-british

[Udy's] citations are often long, but it is always worth while persevering with them.

As Udy proves on page after page, facts were not always impossible to come by, but the likes of George Bernard Shaw and Sidney and Beatrice Webb systematically demonstrated deeply flawed political judgement in ignoring the reality.

www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2017/10-november/books-arts/book-reviews/labour-and-the-gulag-russia-and-the-seduction-of-the-british-left-by-giles-udy

Baaaaaa · 29/07/2022 19:13

DarkDayforMN · 29/07/2022 17:21

If only because it's not quite the same kind of outlandish belief that the trolls here explicitly hold. I think our assumption-making visitor thinks of himself as a left wing anti-authoritarian, as his most recent post makes clear. They've got no idea about themselves.

That at least I find a bit reassuring. I prefer deluded naivety to willful power mongering. I doubt many of the people who fell for natzism and communist regimes were aware either though.

Baaaaaa · 29/07/2022 19:09

BoreOfWhabylon · 29/07/2022 18:52

I understand it was images like this picture of Regent St that prompted the 'Pride Swastike' image.

Terrifying. Bow to your rainbow overlords. BE KIND

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