Tide turning

*fundamentalist Christians

Hey @DaughterofDawn, I was trying to get a straight answer out of the other poster, who haunts this board sniping and snarking, without ever actually contributing to the discussion. Totally nothing to do with your post, and you're very welcome on this board, as a clearly genuine poster.

I think you're right, it may be UK vs US/Canada split, as I have not, once, encountered anyone saying that in UK. They may well exist, but I don't know any fundamental Christians and tend to avoid Neanderthal men.

Catholics that I know well are extremely 'live and let live', even, possibly surprisingly, on abortion and euthanasia.

Yes I have. I have family members that think all trans people should detransition because they are an abomination against god. Interesting though you think I was talking about you or the women here specifically not wanting them to exist? Is that why you are getting so defensive? Because I didn't get that feeling from anyone in this group. 😏😑

Then again I know many folks on mumsnet are from the UK so maybe this is a cultural difference happening here. I'm from Texas to be clear but I now live in Canada.

Do you think they have no right to exist? Because I merely meant the wing nuts on the far reaches of the spectrum think that. I thought that much was obvious but must not be. I understand why you might get defensive as I'm sure you've been accused of this before simply for bring gender critical but I'm feeling a little defensive myself because I feel very much taken out of context and derailed.

I am very much not trolling. You have my promise here that I am speaking from the heart. But the entire point of my original comment was lost in translation so I suppose you can ignore it. I've clearly hit a nerve.

It those who are trans have a right to exist and a vanishingly small proportion of the population say otherwise, I do not understand why a poster needed to state that they thought trans people have the right to exist.

@jgw1 it's weird how women defending themselves against consistent TRA crying that we don't want them to exist makes you question the women's motives.

See, if I accuse you of being a troll and you deny it, in your logic that should make me highly suspicious that you actually are.

Do you want to try again? Have you met anyone who doesn't want trans people to exist?

Then you've clearly never opened a history book before. 😂 can we turn the pages to world war II? LOL. And no I don't grieved transactivists. I very much have a mind of my own which seems to be a rare thing these days. I refuse to let a political party think for me. I believe nuance is important.

I am thinking that I have never known people before going round stressing that they do believe that a group of people have the right to exist, as though that would ever be in doubt.

@DaughterofDawn Or they might get attacked because some men hate gender-non-conformity in other men, which is more likely. It's a form of gay-bashing.

These same men hate lesbians, but double - offense of gender non-conformity AND the crime of not making themselves available to men.

And even those men don't want them to not exist, they just want men and women to conform to the gender norms.

Yes it's ridiculous. I agree. If you think I don't obese reread my entire post.

Well, I've never met anybody who is against existence of trans people, but there must be many of them about, if you believe trans activists.

What do you think, jgw?

Obviously there have been and there will always be. There are extremists on both sides. I mean it is true that transpeople have been and still do get attacked and experience violence. That is clearly happening because people hate the fact that they exist. 🤷🏻‍♀️

There really isn't a rush to medically transition

Stonewall are telling nursery teachers to refer two year old children who play with the 'wrong' toys for their sex to gender clinics.

I personally am not against the existence of Transgender people

Surely there aren't actually people against the existence of other people?

I agree with getting caught up with the gender aspect. I'm very much against the idea of misgendering others or dead naming. I understand why people do it but I don't think it is sending the right message. I think some folks want trans people to stop existing completely which I don't think should be the goal or is even a realistic goal.

I personally am not against the existence of Transgender people. I am against a lot of ideas that have been getting pushed forcing others to transition their children and making it difficult to enforce sex based rights or to even talk about them.

There really isn't a rush to medically transition. There are plenty of trans adults that look very very much like their new gender and they did not take lupron or take hormones or do surgeries until they were in their mid 30's. So it's extremely pointless and stupid to push this on young teens that are still figuring out who they are. If they can't get a tattoo or a piercing at this age then why the f**k are we rushing them into sterilizing themselves? 😂🤦🏻‍♀️

Adults who choose to be trans simply existing are fine and I have zero issue with trans adults existance. They made that decision as an adult. They don't bother me.

As for sex based rights well while I don't mind a trans person who identifies as a woman giving me my pills I would certainly mind if they are doing something that requires touching me or seeing me naked especially if they are still intact. And I don't think anyone should be able to identify their way into my pants.

Thanks @MangyInseam, I found the following really encapsulates my thoughts:

'But when you get right down to it, this is not really just a battle about gender ideology. It's a whole framework around authoritarian identity politics thinking. As long as the framework is in place it's not going to be done. I get a little frustrated at a laser focus on the gender part - I understand it, but as long as the academic freedom, media control, and identity thinking around race, sex, sexuality, or anything else remains in place, gender politics is just a natural extension of that.'

My first objection to this ideology was on the freedom of speech grounds, as growing up in a totalitarian state made me acutely sensitive to its inherent authoritarian ism. I know that others commented on that, eg Jess de Waal, who grew up in East Germany.

Perhaps the authoritarianism is in the left-wing parties ideological DNA (see USSR, Cuba, China, North Korea) and the right-wingers were not as wrong as commonly assumed?

One thing this whole debate has done, at least for me, is it challenged my lazy, 'nice' middle-class world-view, and made me more open to opposing opinions. For that, the TRAs have my gratitude.

I also totally believe it's only a matter of time before people like Jazz Jennings and Nicky Green detransition (or worse)

I don't think Jazz will detransition. Jazz's entire life, career, family relationships and identity is based upon being trans. Jazz's body has been irrevocably surgically altered to match a stated internal gender identity.

The cost of detransition would be so very, very high that I don't think Jazz would ever want to countenance the idea that transitioning was wrong. Everything Jazz has ever known, and derived comfort from, is predicated on the belief that they are trans.

There certainly seem to be a sense of things changing in the UK. Here in Canada it almost seems to be getting worse. But there are people all over who are appealed, people whose kids have been affected, and in the end they may represent something of a powder keg.

I do think that there is soon going to be more of an all-out battle on the health front as it becomes clearer what the effects of these interventions are.

But when you get right down to it, this is not really just a battle about gender ideology. It's a whole framework around authoritarian identity politics thinking. As long as the framework is in place it's not going to be done. I get a little frustrated at a laser focus on the gender part - I understand it, but as long as the academic freedom, media control, and identity thinking around race, sex, sexuality, or anything else remains in place, gender politics is just a natural extension of that.

I think it will happen when so many detransitioners start coming out and gathering that they can no longer be hidden or suppressed. cores enough patents exist that say "we tried to stop this but the government said "shut up or we will send child protective services to your home and remove your parental rights." Or they say "we trusted and did everything we were told to do and all we did was add more problems to our child's already existing problems and now we feel bitter and betrayed."

So it might be a few years I suppose. Give it one or two decades.

The dictionary was a strategy. They got there by persuading news organisations to alter their style guides. They then cited the style guides to the dictionaries as evidence of a change in meaning.

Their leading word-usage resource, Merriam Webster, recently changed the definitions of male and female to "someone with a female gender identity" with gender identity being defined as "someone's internal sense of being either male or female".

By that definition "gender identity" should now be synonymous with "period pain" - that'll typically be when I personally experience an "internal sense" of being female ...

"Yeah, hi, I'm looking for some medication for my gender identity. No, no, no, why are you trying to put me on testosterone? Can you just give me some paracetamol, please?"

I am not hopeful to be honest. There doesn’t seem to be enough momentum to change Labour Party decision makers and if they are not convinced by the upcoming Cass report and sport and keeping single sex spaces, then it is rather tenuous. I think a lot has to happen that cannot be disputed or reversed in the next couple of years or it will go backwards.

The defeat of Mordaunt has shown the ideology has lost grip on the right in politics. Big question is will they follow through to remove it from public sphere. A lot of Tory Mps don't care about the subject.

On the more liberal side a very long way to go. We need to look at this as if we are back in the 60s and institutions were dominated by an overt obvious bias towards male positions. Millions of women had to put up with years and years of sexist rubbish to break the barriers. Women's lib groups in the 70s often not that big locally but still present were vital in changing conversation and helping change.

Some brave women are openly organising off line. It is still risky though. When we have a small but dedicated group meeting regularly in every major town in the country then the tide will truly be turning.

As someone else said another aspect has to come from kids themselves. We need a reaction movement. It exists in that sensible kids avoid extremes, but they don't speak out, but those who actively oppose it are mostly right leaning. Young Tories are not going to stop this. What we need is a bunch of really pissed off teen girls esp lesbians on instagram and tiktok ready to tell their self righteous contemporaries to go to hell.

Actually this is an excellent point. The TRAs are going to find it increasingly impossible to fight back and discredit those who have been there. Keira opened a lot of eyes I think, it will happen more often soon enough.

I think this could very well be it. The social contagion has become so prevalent that it may be the one thing that brings everything down.

The ultimate end to all this may well come from a number of contributory factors but I think this may well kick things off.

The other thing, at least in the UK, will be those in government realising where public opinion on this actually stands. The silent majority are only silent because of TRA aggression and threats and not because they truly buy into the silliness. I think that's starting to become obvious with recent polling. They are getting it, slowly.

Basically we're getting there imo, it's just a question of different groups understanding reality for different reasons.

I think it will take until detransitioners are so ubiquitous that they can't be ignored. It can take years for people to realise theyve made a mistake. Right now almost everyone knows of some teen or othee who is trans/NB-identifying, but one day almost everyone will know of someone who made changes they regret. I also totally believe it's only a matter of time before people like Jazz Jennings and Nicky Green detransition (or worse), and that will send the house of cards tumbling down