Tide turning

And yes, this.

Plop plop plop.

Why do ploppers always use this tone that implies they're so clever and curious? And the rest of us are just boring cunty types? 😂

Not my wording, but that of a previous poster.

I find it interesting that you are comparing being trans to an illness. Is that a widely held view among those who are gender critical?

For example is it a widely held view that if someone is trans they need to be cured?
Hard to tell from your wording what specifically you mean, but if someone needs medical treatment for any reason then whether they are trans or not (which is increasingly hard to establish what that even means - going by Stonewall guidance I'm likely trans, but most TRAs who come here refuse to answer questions that would help me identify this more clearly) should have no bearing on whether they seek or are given it.
Obviously some illnesses cannot be "cured" so it's a bit simplistic to say "X has cancer and needs to be cured" regardless of their identity.

@jgw1 as we've never seen a coherent description of what 'trans' is, we're all over the shop and don't have a unified position.

What's 'trans'?

What I would like to know is whether the views expressed by the previous poster are widely held by those who are gender critical.

For example is it a widely held view that if someone is trans they need to be cured?

Oh noes, are these fascists trying to find a way to ease dysphoric people's suffering?

We, in your sane world, should encourage surgical solutions to psychological distress, without trying to find less invasive ones, or we're Nazis, is that right?

@jgw1 why do you want to know?

Exactly what is it you disagree with, offer us an actual opinion, argue your point - that is the nature of debate, remember that word?

I would argue no, it's a treatment pathway for certain medical issues. What you are really talking about is a gender dysphoric person. No one disputes that such people exist. But in an ideal world what we'd want to do is cure their dysphoria.

Every one of these people is a huge problem in a sane world.

Are these widely held views among those who are gender critical?

I don't thing "trans people having the right to exist" is really the right formulation.

The question is, what is a trans person? Is it some sort of essentially different type of person?

I would argue no, it's a treatment pathway for certain medical issues. What you are really talking about is a gender dysphoric person. No one disputes that such people exist. But in an ideal world what we'd want to do is cure their dysphoria.

Then the question is whether the treatment pathway of transition, if we can't cure it, is effective, if it meets medical standards given the downsides that it involves, both physically and psychologically. That's the appropriate metric. And that's been controversial, even before the recent activism, some doctors and hospitals felt that the outcomes did not justify the risks.

Spinning that as "trans people shouldn't exist" is important to TRAs because the last thing they want is for it to be really looked at in a rigorously scientific or even medical way.

And actually, I would not be surprised if jazz Jennings will be at the fore front of a wave of celebrity detransitioners. She has been very much under the influence of people around her - possibly with good intentions - but she is coming into her own agency, she will be leaving home and meeting different people, freerer to find herself on her own. This may also prove very lucrative, so let's see.....

What has been done to Jazz Jennings is an absolute tragedy, those who enabled it and enacted it should be facing criminal charges and lengthy spells behind bars.

You cannot biologically change sex . There I've said it !

I also think it is only a matter of time before some other, massive names speak up. Names just as big as jk Rowling.

Maybe waiting until the tides turn enough for them to speak, which I appreciate, jk has had a terrible time and no one wants the same!! But huge celebrities who have remained silent up until now, especially ones that may be affected by the ideology personally, are probably gender critical and just waiting for the right time.

Wait until the scales tip just enough for detransitioners to be applauded and celebrated and that will appeal to many who have fallen to this ideology for reasons other than crippling gender dysphoria.

And actually, I would not be surprised if jazz Jennings will be at the fore front of a wave of celebrity detransitioners. She has been very much under the influence of people around her - possibly with good intentions - but she is coming into her own agency, she will be leaving home and meeting different people, freerer to find herself on her own. This may also prove very lucrative, so let's see.....

I think the whole 'you think trans women / men don't exist' is a very interesting argument.

Because of course they exist, we see them!! This whole debate is about them!! It's not about whether or not they exist, it's about whether or not we believe they are literally the sex they think they are. Which I don't.

As an alternate, its about whether or not I think the whole meaning of the word woman and the state of being a woman should be redefined away from the physical reality of our bodies designed to produce children and rather a more ephemeral concept that seems really difficult to define.

If all of a sudden the world was to declare, as one, that there is no such identity or state as transgender but you are perfectly free to dress how you want, call yourself what you want, wear make up and heels or a boiler suit, as an adult make whatever alterations you wish to your appearance and hormonal make up, but sex is very emphatically based in your physical bodies and you cannot change it, on the face of it I would not have a problem with that and would be willing to concede some other points on that basis.

Glad to see another Labour MP speaking out (in reference to Stonewall's idiotic tweet). Does that make 3 of them now? Not quite "tide turning" but perhaps there will be a few more who are building the courage to say something.

twitter.com/FeryalClark/status/1551122802316558337

Totally agree @MaudeYoung, 'So long as so-called "transmen" and "transwomen" avoid telling the rest of us to change and how to behave we should all get along fine'

If there is a genuine change required in UK societal expectations and law, as there was in attitudes to homosexuality, abortion or equality rights legislation, it needs to be achieved through democratic means.

'No debate' is the opposite of democratic means, and Stonewall can go fuck themselves.

Just who the fuck do Stonewall think they are, telling us what we can and can't debate?

So long as so-called "transmen" and "transwomen" avoid telling the rest of us to change and how to behave we should all get along fine. By 'change and how to behave' I mean that women be left to use their single sex spaces and services and not have their boundaries violated against their consent by men who claim they are women and vice versa.

@jgw1 I agree with your total post, apart from the last word, so let me parse it, hopefully without losing the meaning: 'you think TMAW should exist without anyone telling them how they behave.'

I think they should behave within agreed societal conventions, just like everyone else. So when these conventions are repeatedly broken, despite loud protests by a proportion of that society, I object.

I believe there is such thing as a society, and we all must behave ourselves in ways that are legally and morally acceptable.

Do you disagree?

I am delighted to hear that you think that trans men and women have an absolute right to exist, presumably without harassment or anyone telling them to change who they are and how they behave.

I won't tell my father who is an evangelistic Christian that he doesn't exist, or tell him to drop his beliefs and tell him he should stop his happy clapping.
He does not like the fact that I am an atheist and won't go to church with him. As he is my Dad I will let him rant talk to me about his beliefs and sometimes things will get heated.
But he doesn't call me a ChristPhobe for not believing what he does and he doesn't cross boundaries (ie making me in charge of saying grace before dinner ).

Same thing goes with transgender ideology. Feel free to live your lives the way you live, but don't make me believe your beliefs. And don't force me to give up my boundaries as a woman and to stand firm when trying to erase women as a Sex.

I won't force you to raise your happy clappy hands in the air and so please don't ask me to say that males are women.

I am delighted to hear that you think that trans men and women have an absolute right to exist, presumably without harassment or anyone telling them to change who they are and how they behave.

Thanks @jgw1, I am happy that you have never met anyone saying trans people should not exist, quite rightly.

I'm glad you agree women on Mumsnet never, ever, stated that, as you've spent a considerable amount of time reading the discussions, so you would know.

I'm now confident that if you ever hear the oft-repeated slur (in real life or on Twitter) that GC women don't want trans people to exist, you will challenge it, with the same vigour that you display in challenging women here, daily.

Do I have your word?

No, which is why I found it curious for a poster to announce that they thought trans people had a right to exist, they have since explained why they felt the need to.

@jgw1 You did not reply to my question.

Either start giving straight answers or admit you're just here to undermine genuine discussion.

I repeat, have you ever met anyone who doesn't want trans people to exist?

Oh okay. Thank you for explaining. Haha. I was so confused. 😂