Tide turning

@jgw I describe myself as GC. I think that trans people's sense of their inner selves is no more or less worthy of respect than anyone's sense of their inner self. I do not believe transpeople need to be 'cured' any more than I need to be 'cured' of my personality.

To me we are all simply bodies, male or female, with individual personalities, which may or may not align with the stereotypes and societal expectations imposed upon them by the weight of centuries upon centuries of male dominance and female oppression. Our personalities do not make us male or female, men or women - our bodies do.

In some domains, the physical differences between male and female, and those centuries of male dominance justifies segregation of the sexes regardless of an individual's personality (or trans identity).

I believe there is a lot of work to be done on improving access, safety, dignity and privacy for all people. I absolutely reject the notion that women should cede their spaces for this to happen.

I would like to remind women reading and posting that there have been numerous occasions when Mumsnet posts were screenshot to Twitter for trans rights activists to discuss.

It's not been that unusual for someone to make an outrageous comment, screenshot it, and post it elsewhere to exclaim, OMG MN, what a [as per a purported perspective]. However, for various technical reasons that wouldn't be apparent to anyone unless they're a MN user, we can tell that it's the "OMG" tweeter who was the person who posted that comment on MN. The tweeter never, of course, includes the link to the MN site so that anyone can see what other comments are there etc.

There are definitely more detransitioners posting their stories and growing realisations about how they were let down on twitter. I expect that trend to continue as some of the young people from 5/10/15 years ago turn into mature adult and realise what they've lost.

The NHS lost the trans woman in changing room case precisely because they did not protect single sex spaces. If they had excised their right under the EA to restrict the changing room to actual women, there would have been no issue. The problem arose from treating a man as a woman, and then not allowing him to get naked in a women's changing room, which presumably the women - in theory at least - were allowed to do.

So the lesson the NHS should draw is to protect single sex spaces, or they will get endless similar problems. Sadly, however, as an NHS worker, I can confirm that their policy-makers are fucking idiots, so unlikely to understand why they fucked up, and how to avoid a repeat.

Quite often the images are closely cropped to get rid of any context. e.g. "I find it hard to believe that the majority of trans people are harmful" somehow has the first seven letters cropped out with a caption saying "See! Look what MN are promoting". Or it's the middle tweet in a thread where they are relaying what someone else has said and it's attributed as their own views.

Links are obviously far better but I've barely seen a single plopper from Twitter able to engage civilly.

Seems a strange thing to do, but each to their own. I am not on twitter so had no idea, that people would do that.

Anyway I expect if I posted here and then it was shared elsewhere I would be pleased that the post was gaining a wider audience and was generating further discussion.

I feel it's worth answering your question @jgw1 'Why on earth would I be trying to get screenshots?'

I would like to remind women reading and posting that there have been numerous occasions when Mumsnet posts were screenshot to Twitter for trans rights activists to discuss.

These discussions involved not an ounce of respect afforded to gender identity proponents on this board, to put it in polite terms.

So yes, jgw, TRAs monitor this board, very closely, and regularly post screenshots for their 'proof' we are all bigots.

Did you actually not know that? I find it quite hard to believe, please reassure me as soon as you can

I simply will never understand how one can desire to be a man and simultaneously want to do the one thing men cannot do. Give birth.

Well the NHS seem to think it's ok to have a penis on a woman's ward so we're no where near sanity just yet. And chest feeding is the way forward in maternity wards too according to medical guidelines set out in the U.K. recently.

And that’s what I mean when I say I don’t believe in ‘trans’ identities. It’s not that I don’t believe the people exist - there they are, and we can all see them. It’s that I don’t see that their claims have veracity or coherency. That’s not to say I dismiss the possibility that they do have those things and I just don’t get it, but I don’t get it.

Who knows?

Well this was my point, which our plopper valiantly ignored.

This idea of "you think trans people don't have a right to exist" rather suggests there is some kind of accepted meaning to the term.

There isn't one that comes from activism, that I have ever seen, that is even slightly coherent, or which in any way explains why it needs to involve compelling people to use gender based pronouns or should involve any type of medical intervention. No one in this thread has managed to come up with any useful definition.

The only scientifically and medically based definition revolves around treatment of dysphoria.

Why on earth would I be trying to get screenshots?

‘I mean, if a person feels their body is wrong, that is a kind of dysphoria. Pretty much by definition.’

But having bodily dysphoria doesn’t make you ‘trans’, does it?

Ah - you have somehow managed to interpret the exact opposite of what I meant. Have another read.

@LaughingPriest Apologies I had indeed misread your post.

I mean, if a person feels their body is wrong, that is a kind of dysphoria. Pretty much by definition.

Right, but not all trans people fall under that. I consider myself to be genderless, which apparently is some kind of way to be trans, but I don't think my body is "wrong". I think sex role stereotypes are wrong.

So many threads/posts on FWR are operating under countless definitions of 'trans'. Someone who wants to be the opposite sex? Sure. Someone with gender dysphoria? OK. Someone who feels they are neither particularly masculine or feminine? Why not...?

Honestly the ploppers are so boring and so obvious. I tend to assume they're very young.

I mean, if a person feels their body is wrong, that is a kind of dysphoria. Pretty much by definition.

@jgw1
I find it interesting that you are comparing being trans to an illness. Is that a widely held view among those who are gender critical?

Ah - you have somehow managed to interpret the exact opposite of what I meant. Have another read.

I suspect this is the problem with trying to address statements that are vague to the point of meaningless such as 'trans people need to be cured'.

I'll try to summarise my point again. Any person who is ill of any illness - a cold, depression, broken leg - as was implied by your use of the word 'cured' - should be able to seek treatment for that illness. Their gender identity - whether they are trans or not - should not affect whether they seek a cure for any illness that they have.

I do not equate trans with being ill, if that was your actual question - unless the person also has an illness. I don't compare 'trans' with anything, because what the word 'trans' means is basically indefinable. You may have well asked me 'do you think if someone supports Graviwgf they need to be cured'? My answer - yes, if they are ill.

It would help if you could articulate your meaning a bit more clearly in your posts, and define terms if people say they are not clear on what you mean.
What do you think 'trans' is, for example?

Others have pointed me to definitions saying it's when a person's sex (male or female) doesn't match their gender (anything) but does not clearly state what a sex 'matching' a gender is. One is a biological reality, the other is a feeling. How can a feeling match or not match a body? What would a matching sex and gender look like, for example?

‘Thank you that is reassuring @achillestoes. Do you have the impression that your view is widely held?’

Widely but not ubiquitously.

Fuck me, how do you expect private individuals to speak for a disparate group

do your own research and draw your own fucking conclusions

lazy

Thank you that is reassuring @achillestoes. Do you have the impression that your view is widely held?

For example is it a widely held view that if someone is trans they need to be cured?

Not my view. I think it’s a psychological issue to sincerely think you are or should have been born the opposite sex, and I think it’s often bound up with other psychological issues. However it’s not up to me what medical treatments other people accept.

But no, ‘misgendering’ isn’t denying the existence of any person. Every person exists. It’s just recognising the truth about their sex, and not believing in gendered entities.