Page 20 | I am embracing virtue signalling pronouns in emails

MsFogi · 2022-07-21T17:25:07+00:00

I have realised I have made too many assumptions about gender over the years. I had always assumed that Paul (name changed of course) in my company was a man simply on the basis of his appearance (well over 6 foot, well built, big beard, low voice that only someone with an Adam's apple and whose balls have dropped could have). Imagine my relief to find that I have not been misgendering him for over a decade because he has helpfully added his pronouns to his email auto signature - they are he/him/his. There is no company diktat to add pronouns on emails so clearly this is important to Paul or maybe he has been misgendered recently. So, I thought I would ensure that Paul was not offended on a Teams meeting this afternoon and kicked off the meeting by asking everyone to note that Paul's pronouns are he/him/his and that given that he has stated these that everyone please be sensitive to ensuring that they use them. No one said anything so I think they all took it on board, no one misgendered Paul and I like to think that his move to include his pronouns at work has been embraced in my meeting. Maybe as a result others that attended the meeting will add theirs to their auto signatures too.

Conflictedunicorn · 23/07/2022 11:07

But who are we supposed to be welcoming? Do we have to provide the people we are welcoming with hot beverages? That’s what I was taught to do?

Datun · 23/07/2022 11:06

MsFogi · 22/07/2022 23:33

Thanks for such a wonderfully reasoned response Datun - as always you manage to encapsulate the issues so much more eloquently than I could ever hope to.

I am genuinely interested in the different reactions of people on this thread - I posted simply to share what seems to me the logical thing for GC women to do where possible given the ever-increasing unthinking prevalence of pronouns (particularly their proliferation on LinkedIn and on email autosignatures). And, yet again, I genuinely covered Paul's pronouns in an extremely neutral way (but I understand that those on this thread are imagining various horrors) and Paul is a pretty senior, robust chap so I would be surprised if he was crying in the men's loos after the meeting. Who knows though - maybe he took a moment to think about whether there was a risk of his pronouns being covered at all meetings he attends going forward or if he should be keeping an eye on others' auto signatures/LinkedIn profiles going forward so that he can cover them when he chairs meetings (maybe it gave pause for thought to others at the meeting too).

All that said, I certainly did not intend for any GC women to end up at loggerheads given that this is one part of a much larger issue, albeit one that, as many have said on this thread, is the thin end of the wedge. That said, part of the joy of the feminism boards over the years has been the excellent debate between so many women who are much more intelligent to me (note to the poster who was embarrassed on my behalf for somehow appearing to think that I am clever - I don''t know which half of the population I fall in but I don't think any woman should be embarrassed if she is clever or even about thinking she is clever).

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The layers of power play involved in this ideology are complex. Because it is dressed up as progression and kindness, when it's nothing of the sort.

So it took me a while to make sure I was explaining myself, so thank you for calling it eloquent! And then I find this perfection from Baaaa, who has done it in half the time it took me.

Gaslighting a gaslighter. This bloke had his power ploy neutralised. It is unsurprising some people feel VERY uncomfortable about it. When you expect benefits from an action and it backfires, cognitive dissonance is the result. Good. It is not bullying. Bullying is what has been happening to people who call this out overtly.

People who are calling it mocking and piss taking are spectacularly missing the point.

It's neutralising the power.

And most women on here get it. Women posting about their instant identification of an underclass and an overclass. We are seeing recognition of women being provided as a service to those who dominate, whilst being hampered by the pretence that it's progressive so they can't complain.

If you are, as you say you are, gender critical, why are you not seeing the power being wielded by pronoun proclamations and the OP's deft means of disarmament? Whilst ostensibly adhering to all the conditions expected of her!

Yes, it's bloody clever.

IcakethereforeIam · 23/07/2022 11:04

Some posters seem to be stating by not putting pronouns you are unwelcoming and not understanding. Is this irony?

I don't, would never, put pronouns and I'm lovely.

Conflictedunicorn · 23/07/2022 10:57

It’s why I keep replying. Do you think they realise at some point if they don’t reply the thread will die….

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 23/07/2022 10:55

God, they’re still at it!

Do they not even realise that the more they fuss and stamp their feet, the longer this thread stays at the top of the board, and the more people realise this is a great form of innocuous rebellion that really fucking annoys them?

(also I have to say I find it very funny that someone claiming not to be a TRA is so mindbogglingly invested in this thread.)

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/07/2022 10:50

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/07/2022 13:10

By putting pronouns I am not clarifying gender but that I am welcoming and understanding to all

If a person declares their pronouns they are declaring firstly that they believe in an inner gender identity which is more significant to ones needs in life than the sex of ones body to the degree that it is entirely appropriate and non-controversial to reuse all words pertaining to sex in purposes pertaining to gender because there is never a valid need to differentiate between them, and secondly that they personally recognise and share a specific inner gender identity with trans people of the opposite sex, which is signalled by their use of shared pronouns.

Which (a) is fine if you do believe that but many people don't, and it sucks that trans ideology's reuse of existing words has left those people without the words they have used all their lives with a different meaning, and (b) is not a neutral declaration but an active declaration of your gender identity and therefore yes, worth mentioning.

If people don't realise what they sign up for by declaring pronouns they should educate themselves because it is very far from a neutral, status quo act.

Went back to look at this post. Spot on 👏

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/07/2022 10:40

KosherDill · 23/07/2022 10:22

Exactly.

How childish and bigoted to object to such a harmless practice. Calling it out in a meeting just makes you look ridiculous.

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Did you see my post at 13.10 yesterday explaining why it's not a harmless practice?

If you read it and disagree I'm interested to know why.

Conflictedunicorn · 23/07/2022 10:39

If it’s a harmless practice and not important, why are certain people (some on this thread) so incensed by our disbelief in following it?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/07/2022 10:37

How childish and bigoted to object to such a harmless practice. Calling it out in a meeting just makes you look ridiculous.

Why would it? She literally just reiterated what his self expressed pronouns were? No mockery.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/07/2022 10:35

I am not disappointed that the TRA have not turned up.

That's debatable, for at least one person on this thread.

Conflictedunicorn · 23/07/2022 10:31

You said we were incapable of seeing your point of view. That implies either we are too thick to understand or deliberately being obtuse? Both rather insulting.
I am not disappointed that the TRA have not turned up.

you have made the point you do not approve of what OP did. Others find it funny. Isn’t it great no one is forcing us to subscribe to one viewpoint on pain of receiving threats and abuse? People can have preferred pronouns, that is their prerogative. It is my prerogative to take the piss out of the ideology and express that opinion.. I love that about mumsnet.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/07/2022 10:31

Thank fuck we still have humour to see us through these weird times. And I don't mean piling in on an individual which has not happened here. I mean being able to laugh and yes mock the absurdity of where this ideology has led to. Thank fuck the direction is turning and we in the UK didn't have laws imposed on us preventing us from speaking openly.

This.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/07/2022 10:29

Kanaloa

Your behaviour on this thread is not exactly covering you in glory.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/07/2022 10:27

Did we just get called thick? Why do they always resort to insults? I’m of the opinion if you have to resort to insults, your argument is invalid.

It's really tedious. Kanaloa wants to take a holier than thou position, but she keeps responding with sneers and insults about other people here, because apparently no one is allowed to find things funny she doesn't.

Kanaloa · 23/07/2022 10:25

Conflictedunicorn · 23/07/2022 10:21

Did we just get called thick? Why do they always resort to insults? I’m of the opinion if you have to resort to insults, your argument is invalid.

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I didn’t call anyone thick. If you look at the whole post I was saying due to the attitude that because I disagree on one point I’m the ultimate enemy (to the point it’s been implied I think death threats etc are good since I disagree with this) there’s no chance of you seeing my point of view. I think in fact you’re so disappointed no TRA have come along to say oh no you bad people, how dare you not accept pronouns, that you’ve decided to instead try to whip it up so I seem like the enemy. I’m not. But go ahead if you like, presume I called you thick when I said nothing of the sort.

KosherDill · 23/07/2022 10:22

MrsRuggles · 21/07/2022 19:01

Maybe this has been misunderstood, or people are being deliberately obtuse. Indicating one's pronouns in email signatures is not to ensure that one is not misgendered. For cis people with names not clearly of one gender or another it does have that advantage. What your burly chap was quite likely doing was showing his support of trans people who are more often misgendered. It normalises the practice. Good for Paul.

Exactly.

How childish and bigoted to object to such a harmless practice. Calling it out in a meeting just makes you look ridiculous.

Conflictedunicorn · 23/07/2022 10:21

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/07/2022 10:13

Unfortunately you’re not capable of seeing what I’m saying so there’s no chance of a sensible conversation.

Back at you.

Did we just get called thick? Why do they always resort to insults? I’m of the opinion if you have to resort to insults, your argument is invalid.

ilovesushi · 23/07/2022 10:19

I know someone with fluid pronouns, but unless you were to talk about him/them behind his/their back, it doesn't really matter and he/they would be out of ear shot anyway, so is not likely to take offence.

We had a request to state pronouns in our email signatures at work a bit back and I was tempted to put I/me. Left it blank in the end.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/07/2022 10:13

Unfortunately you’re not capable of seeing what I’m saying so there’s no chance of a sensible conversation.

Back at you.

blahblahblahspoons · 23/07/2022 10:12

I meant to add to my post above about pronouns being unworkable if taken seriously for all that I felt the OP was simply demonstrating this in taking them as seriously as we're all supposed to. Demonstrating the unworkableness of it if everyone does it.

Of course we're all supposed to just silently accept the double standard that they're for the overclass and not for us normal women - we are supposed to put our pronouns in our signature so it's clear we're the lesser, service class but not demand the same accommodations - so I applaud the OP for very cleverly resisting this foundational requirement of the ideology and acting on the assumption of equality for all.

I look forward to hearing the update where an entire meeting is spent discussing how all the overworked and underpaid middle aged females are now they/them and the sum total of no meaningful work is done. I really hope given OP has shown she will treat everyone equally that this happens. (I predict an outburst of narcissistic male rage and entitlement may follow this meeting).

In my job I have to schedule meetings quite far in advance for people all around the world. It's quite common for me to schedule something and then someone from a particular religion to come back and say they are observing a religious holiday so need to change the date. So it actually would save me some time if people put their religious beliefs in their email signatures.

However, I don't think people should have to do this as the world has a horrible history of religious persecution and people shouldn't have to disclose their beliefs to all and sundry, especially people who they only interact with via email and never actually meet (same applies to pronouns and women being compelled or having pressure applied to put them in their signature of course).

roarfeckingroarr · 23/07/2022 09:55

L

Artichokeleaves · 23/07/2022 09:38

blahblahblahspoons · 23/07/2022 09:32

The thing is, if everyone does the pronoun thing there will literally be no time for any work in any business. It only works if it's a tiny virtue signalling or attention seeking minority serviced by the vast majority.

Especially once 'they/theirs' or opposite sex pronouns stop making you seem different enough and everyone starts using the weird new ones. People can't remember all this, as a menopausal women remembering NAMES is difficult for me - what about considering my menopausal needs? What about non-NT employees? It's a good example of conflicts between different characteristics. It's not useful to the business in any way - people don't use pronouns to other people's faces, so it only causes offence if people are looking for it.

Unless you think one group become the overclass and the other are the underclass there only to service the needs of the former, then it's just unworkable in a functioning business.

If you DO think one small group of people should be an overclass I'd suggest you read some twentieth century history books about where this leads.

Nailed it.

This entire philosophy relies on a few special people with special privilege receiving service from everyone else. And the everyone else are certainly not supposed to receive equal consideration and treatment. Hence the 'be kind' versus 'reframe your trauma'. And 'extreme danger in the mens toilets' versus 'NAMALT'.

Lundy Bancroft has written some very interesting things on the double standards of entitlement that are intrinsic to the dynamic of an abusive relationship. Codependency is also not a healthy thing.

I also find it interesting how many detransitioners have written with great articulacy about how their need to control played a strong part during their transition, with people separated into those who would demonstrate compliance and that control was working, and detaching completely from those who resisted.

blahblahblahspoons · 23/07/2022 09:32

The thing is, if everyone does the pronoun thing there will literally be no time for any work in any business. It only works if it's a tiny virtue signalling or attention seeking minority serviced by the vast majority.

Especially once 'they/theirs' or opposite sex pronouns stop making you seem different enough and everyone starts using the weird new ones. People can't remember all this, as a menopausal women remembering NAMES is difficult for me - what about considering my menopausal needs? What about non-NT employees? It's a good example of conflicts between different characteristics. It's not useful to the business in any way - people don't use pronouns to other people's faces, so it only causes offence if people are looking for it.

Unless you think one group become the overclass and the other are the underclass there only to service the needs of the former, then it's just unworkable in a functioning business.

If you DO think one small group of people should be an overclass I'd suggest you read some twentieth century history books about where this leads.

mrshoho · 23/07/2022 09:20

Thank fuck we still have humour to see us through these weird times. And I don't mean piling in on an individual which has not happened here. I mean being able to laugh and yes mock the absurdity of where this ideology has led to. Thank fuck the direction is turning and we in the UK didn't have laws imposed on us preventing us from speaking openly. I despair for Ireland and their uphill struggle now. I hope Scotland doesn't go the same way. Keep laughing women - I think this angers the TRAs very very much! Thank you OP.

Kanaloa · 23/07/2022 08:47

@TheBiologyStupid

Even on this very board I’m often on threads talking about the trans movements and my opinions on it. Obviously TRA don’t often post here and I’m not a member of forums where they would frequent so I don’t often post directly to them. However I’m a regular in this board and often post on threads on here about the trans movement.

I’m not going to continue trying to defend it though - I think the poster who mentioned this being seen as a small victory’ was right, and people are determined to defend their point of view to the point of seeing anyone who disagrees with one part of it as the enemy/someone to fight their point to. Unfortunately you’re not capable of seeing what I’m saying so there’s no chance of a sensible conversation.