I am embracing virtue signalling pronouns in emails

If Paul had declared that his pronouns were she/her, would it have been the right thing to do to announce that at the meeting? People who knew what he looked like and were aware that Paul is normally a male name would not expect his pronouns to be she/her, so he would have been misgendered by just about everyone if they were not announced.

The reason usually given for people like Paul (he/him) stating their pronouns is so that such a practice becomes normal for everyone, so that when someone like Paul (she/her) states their pronouns it doesn't stand out. If it is the right thing to do to announce at a meeting that Paul is she/her, is it not also the right thing to do to announce the other Paul as he/him if he has also put his pronouns in his email signature? Or should all pronouns in signatures be ignored, which would mean that Paul (she/her) is likely to be repeatedly misgendered?

I can't disagree with you. I just don't think it's that big a deal, were it not for the wider society totally losing its shit over gender. A bit of gentle ribbing is often part of team cultures. Can you honestly say the reaction of some of the posters on here isn't also to score a point? Check out the hyperbole at the start of the thread.

The OP did this to score a point. It was completely unnecessary in the context of a Teams meeting-the wide eyed talking about being "suuprtive" is disingenuous.

I think declaring your pronouns is a load of nonsense but regardless of that, if I were the OP's employer I would not be impressed if I'd been at the meeting.

I think people who see the OP's action as mean, want it to be mean. Though in honesty I have to admit it works the other way round too. I see it as AOB or gentle teasing at worst. Fuck knows what Paul thought, he's probably already forgotten about it.

No not at all, that’s not what I said at all. The OPs approach is the classic bully’s approach… saying something she intends to be belittling/demeaning/whatever, but in such a way that when she’s called on it she can pretend she was actually on Paul’s side. We know she wasn’t doing it support Paul. We know Paul probably didn’t want support. But we can also infer he might have been doing it to support others. We don’t know, and neither does she, if anyone else in the meeting or in the business might want support, and if they do then the OPs approach is likely not to make them feel supported. By all means have a debate / discussion about the use of pronouns and gender, but doing it in that way in a meeting just seems unnecessarily mean to me.

Logic fail

I wonder is it more that they just don't care? The vulnerable women it ultimately impacts just aren't very important to them. And they like the woke points.

It costs me nothing

Therefore

It costs nobody

Logic fail

And even if it was as clumsy as all get-out, I would rather use names than authenticate a lie and allow someone to compel my speech.

You need pronouns (oops, see, one just slipped in there saying you!) - it's THIRD PERSON PRONOUNS that are affected @GoodJanetBadJanet .

The ones you use when talking ABOUT somebody, not to them.

When someone is talking about me, I couldn't give a damn what pronouns they use (and unless it's a lie which is detrimental to my reputation I don't care what they say, either - as someone once said "What other people think of you is none of your business").

I can't see how using "preferred pronouns" (when they don't align with sex) is damaging to anyone. They aren't there to hear it, for a start!

However they are VERY damaging to the people who insist on using "she/her" for a man and "he/him" for a woman or "they/them" for a non-binary/binary - and don't even get me started on the "unique" ones!

They set up cognitive dissonance which damages critical (in the true sense) thought - whether you realise it or not. You also have to constantly police your own speech and that of others - and constantly compel your own speech and that of others - or try to. Personally, I am not in the business of compelling anyone else's speech/thought, and I don't expect them to try to compel mine.

But it does make a difference to you, because it makes a difference to all women. You just have copped it yet.
In your opinion it does, not mine.

Sarah says Sarah will be late in tomorrow so Sarah might be starting Sarah's work a little bit later tomorrow

Sarah will be delayed tomorrow so may be starting work a bit later.

Doesn't sound too problematic to me.

But it does make a difference to you, because it makes a difference to all women. You just have copped it yet.

But it does make a difference to you, because it makes a difference to all women. You just have copped it yet.

Or not using pronouns at all, names only.
How would that even work though?!
Sarah says Sarah will be late in tomorrow so Sarah might be starting Sarah's work a little bit later tomorrow 😕
You need pronouns (oops, see, one just slipped in there saying you!)
That's what would be head confusing, not just using pronouns in the first place!

It doesn’t matter to me what they want to be called, it’s their life and it it costs me nothing, and makes no difference to me
Exactly, I think the same.
Makes no difference to me whether to use them or not, so I choose to use them.

It doesn’t matter to me what they want to be called, it’s their life and it it costs me nothing, and makes no difference to me

I used to think this.

I'm changing my position however.

Pronouns corroborate the fundamental dishonesty at the heart of it all. They start the process of muddying the water between sex and gender. And as the previous poster outlines, that then can have devastating outcomes for vulnerable women. You may be too privileged to notice or care, but that's the truth.

If someone doesn't want to use their sex pronouns, I disagree they have a right to use the opposite sexes pronouns. In this case, neutral pronouns strike me as a better compromise for all. Or not using pronouns at all, names only.

There are a few things I wanted to pick up in this.

Firstly, pronoun announcements are built on the GI ideoogy. This ideology might not have cost you anything but it sure as heck has cost a lot of women a great deal. Does it only worry you if it has a personal impact or can you have empathy for vulnerable women?

Secondly, Paul has already announced his pronouns. How is announcing them mocking him?

Thirdly, surely the whole point of GI is that you know no-one's identity or pronouns unless they tell you these things? So people do NOT know Paul's pronouns. I would HATE for people to assume I identify as a woman with all the sexist paraphernalia which goes with that just because I've not announced that like most people I am agender and believe that a person does not need to be constrained by socially constructed gender boxes. It is anti-GI to assume that you know his pronouns because his name is Paul.

Absolutely agree . . . probably . . . 😄

Every time this ideology is shown up for the idiocy it is, it is a step forwards.

I'm not so sure about any of my other fellow attendees - I think they're women, but none of the women specified their pronouns, so how can I be sure

What a terrible position to put you in @GoodThinkingMax - have they no consideration for your dilemma? You won't be able to speak to, or about those possibly-women-possibly-not until you find out somehow. But how can you ask? How embarrassing for them would that be.

You could literally kill someone.

(Has anyone read "The End of the World is Flat" by Simon edge? In this satyrical novel he shows just how this whole sorry type of situation can come about, and how dangerous it can be)

I had to call Barry recently. I was so grateful of the he/him on his email signature, I’d have assumed he was a woman otherwise.

I'm at an academic research retreat. I was so pleased that Andrew and James both indicated their pronouns when we did the round he table introductions. I might have made lazy assumptions about their gender identities, based on their beards and their height. I'm not so sure about any of my other fellow attendees - I think they're women, but none of the women specified their pronouns, so how can I be sure ?

@Tryingtokeepgoing I think your position is that pronouns in emails 'can do something with little effort, and zero cost or impact to make someone else’s life better', and all those women who disagree are making fuss about nothing? Is that correct?

But that he also wants to show to support to those who do want their pronouns to be known for whatever reason.

i don’t understand why everyone is so unappreciative of OP showing support to people who show support to those who do want their pronouns to be known for whatever reason.

People, all people, are either female sex or male sex, and perceived accurately by others. Even by babies, toddlers, dogs, cats, horses, cattle, sheep, etc. Ad on Sooom meeting, Teams meetings, etc.

Why the bludgeoning lying and "No Debate"?

Is that really what’s happened in this thread

Yes, it is. Do feel free to have a stab at answering the questions people have put, but I don't think it was you pp had in mind.

Is that really what’s happened in this thread and my posts, or is that what you want to believe? It really quite easy to explain, to those who have an open mind. Some people, transgender or otherwise, would rather be know by pronouns different to to those that other refer to them by, for whatever reason. It doesn’t matter to me what they want to be called, it’s their life and it it costs me nothing, and makes no difference to me. So it’s a small action that doesn’t impact me at all and makes someone else’s life better. Why would I not be happy with that?

It’s clear that the colleague originally mentioned, Paul, wants to show that he supports those who do feel that they’d like their pronouns to be known. I’m not sure why the OP thought it was appropriate to mock him for it during a meeting…. Well, I am…she did it because she thought it was a clever way of undermining him and mocking those who do want their pronouns to be known. Spectacularly missing the point that Paul almost certainly knows that everyone knows his pronouns. Paul is a well known name all over the world. But that he also wants to show to support to those who do want their pronouns to be known for whatever reason. Which comes back to my viewpoint that it makes no difference to me, or indeed Paul, but if we can do something with little effort, and zero cost or impact to make someone else’s life better why wouldn’t we?

Absolutely! As Helen Joyce pointed out recently, many "progressive" organisations have been engaging in unproductive infighting and navel-gazing rather than actually attempting to actually achieve the aims of the bodies that they work or volunteer for: www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-13/

@MsFogi
You basically called the TRA bluff on pronouns in an elegant way! 😂💐
May I add that you sound like a great boss - respectful of your co-workers/team and their time.