Irish Times - ex Minister of Justice on 'trans rights'

I am totally, utterly amazed - Ides posted without mention of “penis and testicles”…. @JellySaurus - you have indeed made an impression 🤭💐

Fair Play to Glinner! I hope he gets his show on the road - literally and metaphorically.

Fr Ted , Black Books , the IT Crowd , Count Arthur Strong. What a CV. And those creeps dragged him down. 😡

Well @Gubu I've always hated McDowell's politics or at least his economics , while respecting his intellect.

But you are right , it needs someone on the left to send up a rocket. If it's a person of the stature of O Toole it would embolden others?

Wokus Dei is a Glinner invention. Wish I could claim credit

Wokus Dei ....genius. I think of Teni as a little day Legion of Mary. All the snitching and bitching but none of the charitable work.

Good article- sensible, balanced and compassionate. We welcome the grown ups to the room. (And obviously congratulations Jellysaurus on your first ad hom)

Yes, it was, but she didn't reverse ferret. Afaik she simply left it there, without comment, defense or apology. And I remember Paul Howard supporting her right to support Suzanne Moore. Naturally he didn't get the same treatment.

And look where that got her! All the kinds of people whose opinions she normally shares turned on her like sharks sensing blood. It was shocking to see.

Interesting. I haven't listened to the Women's Podcast since Kathy Sheridan introduced Amy Huberman as "the wife of Brian O'Driscoll". On international Women's Day 🙄. I'm not going to give up on Roisin though. She has written some very good pieces about things only women (the traditional kind) experience and she supported Suzanne Moore.

Eg

www.facebook.com/1463017114027244/posts/pfbid02EJ1KH56f5Zbx9SYumkoAqLJY54GQ8WD6rdAW3GExPoUNAwKtt1BqUyjSuRD7QmnSl/

Roisin Ingle hasn't, as far as I know, said a word either way. She knows

I'm really not sure she does, unfortunately. Based on her Women's Podcasts interviews & some references in her interviews for IT. I agree she doesn't seem to have addressed it in her opinion columns.

A Mumsnet first for me: first time an ad hominem attack has been aimed at me.

@PleasantBirthday I too am a subscriber...better to be inside the tent etc.?
I am also on the Irish Times reader panel rewards thingy. So I get an email approximately monthly asking my views on the quality of the paper etc. What stories do I follow? Are there any stories that I would like covered in the IT.
For the last several months, I have answered referencing Kathleen Stock, Maya Forstater, Allison Bailey.
UK law is still referenced as precedent (AFAIK, IANAL) so the ongoing nature of, and the outcomes of their cases, should be known in Irish legal/political circles. The Irish Times ("paper of record" yada yada)is surely aware of the various sides to the issue, and the viciousness of one side. If I can do anything to support a balanced debate in a paper with the influence of the IT, then I will.

I said this on the Craicnet thread too, but I think the article, which I agree is useful and a welcome change for the IT, will be dismissed/ignored by many for being written by Michael McDowell who is pretty right wing.

I am interested in who is not writing about this topic from the IT. Roisin Ingle hasn't, as far as I know, said a word either way. She knows. Fintan O'Toole has also edged closer to seeing the wood for the trees but has been quiet for a while now. I think when/if they break cover it will be important.

I'm really surprised at the attitude of the Irish towards controlling language considering their history.

'The first British Law enacted in Ireland which specifically banned the use of the Irish language was Article III of The Statute of Kilkenny from 1367 which made it illegal for English colonists in Ireland to speak the Irish language and for the native Irish to speak their language when interacting with them.11 Oct 2018'

Artichokeleaves
And there obviously, in a sane world, cannot be a two tier society in which some people have a higher level of power and an entitlement sensitivity and protection and absolute consideration of their identity and choice of language and requirement that this is at all times respected - while other people are told to shut up, put up, deal and put other people's wishes, needs and feelings first or else, and their identity and choice of language is irrelevant.

Unfortunately, that seems to already be happening.

There's such a level of self absorption inherent in all this. Certain people throw a tantrum, make all sorts of unreasonable demands because they are the most victimised ever and ever amen.
And other people who don't want the hassle of challenging them, just either go along with it grudgingly or back away slowly and leave them at it. Which gives them carte blanche to carry on.

When did the push for 'human rights' go from wanting to be treated like everyone else, to wanting to be treated like a super special person at the expense of everyone else?

The problem is, until it directly affects them, the vast majority of people will just roll their eyes and try to ignore. There's too much apathy in Ireland about stuff like this, which means our politicians carry on making shit laws, and compounding them with other shit laws.

Excellent to see this sensible middle road starting to come from what has been so very, very captured ground.

This is the only realistic answer: everyone is entitled to use the language they wish, there is no right or entitlement to compel others to change or erase language to preserve other people's beliefs and this is an unacceptable demand, and the massive majority of people are and will continue to wish to operate on a sex based basis and should not be impeded in doing so. It is perfect possible for those who wish to use different language to do so without forcing this on others.

And there obviously, in a sane world, cannot be a two tier society in which some people have a higher level of power and an entitlement sensitivity and protection and absolute consideration of their identity and choice of language and requirement that this is at all times respected - while other people are told to shut up, put up, deal and put other people's wishes, needs and feelings first or else, and their identity and choice of language is irrelevant.

No thank you.

I'm an IT subscriber (although at times I have been doubting that this is a good idea) and I had a look at the letters today. Not a whisper, even from the redoubtable Bernie who appears to live for letters to the editor.

I wonder if that's because we really do know who is a man.

That Irish politician in Scotland is an idiot. She was practically boasting about how misinformed the politicians and public were about the Self Id law. She's aware now, because Barbie in the women's section of Limerick prison was front page news. When that story broke nobody had any idea Barbie is a man.

The politician also made a comment that she "think's" in Ireland there are 9 Genders. No journalist asked her what those might be. Meanwhile in BBC training there are 100 genders.

But good news is that the Irish Times have an article about ex Justice Minister McDowell's views on Trans. That newspaper is very much afraid to publish such articles as they have been targeted by Irish students.

I know @Roseglen84 - amazing the Irish Times is somehow struggling on without them & people are continuing to buy the paper, too!

As for the students, I hope none of them are wanting to make a career as a journalist, because after this… 🤦‍♀️

Trans Writers Union, I'm sure the IT was devastated!!

I agree with you, there seems to be this weird idea among young people and young aspiring journalists that journalism is not about getting to the truth, but rather pushing an agenda. And so long as the 'right' agenda is allowed (i.e. the one they support) then lies can and should be told in service of this.

I'm going to sound like a grumpy old shite (at 38) but I despair for young people if they cannot accept that others have a right to a different opinion, and that truth matters.

The Trans Writers’ Union have been boycotting the Irish Times since last November. Because how very dare someone have an unsanctioned opinion.

Going out on a limb, I suspect they’re a wee bit more bothered about the Students’ Union joining the boycott earlier this year.

Whole concept of a free press & associated journalistic integrity seems to have eluded the lot of them.

We can but hope!