Transwoman wins employment discrimination case against NHS for being treated differently from women in changing room

surely the question for the court is whether the individual was unfairly treated (against how any other male person would have been treated) if they were male and naked below the waist, in a women’s changing room?

That’s the crux of it. The court thought that the question was whether they were unfairly treated relative to a woman behaving the same way.

Honestly I think a woman who’d been initiating inappropriate conversations about her underwear with colleagues, who was conspicuously naked in a communal changing room where normally people don’t strip off completely, might well get spoken to about it and told she was making people uncomfortable.

But of course it’s not at all the same thing as a dick owner getting “her”(!) dick out in the women’s changing rooms and the comparator should have been another male.

The poster did say "I", so I'm not sure why you thought they were speaking for anyone except themselves.

Absolute rubbish, I and most women can tell they are trans within a nanosecond.

I work in the NHS and have to use a changing room daily. Our changing room is far too small for the number of staff using it. There are two toilets in the changing room and these represent the only private space to change.

Lots of my colleagues are observant muslims. They queue for considerable amounts of time to change in the toilet.

I would hate for their rights to be overruled in the way that those of the women in Sheffield were.

What's the difference between a man penis and a lady penis so I know when not to be offended?

We are fucked.

So now, a biological male can walk into a women's changing room, walk around with his full male intact genitalia on display, and HE is protected if anyone dares to complain.
What if there had been children in there?
Where is the safeguarding?

The law is now PROTECTING indecent exposure.

If anyone has seen the video footage of the Wii Spa incident in USA, the women were all walking about modestly covered in robes and towels.
THAT is how normal women behave. Biological women have never felt the need to parade about with their genitals on display, even among other biological women.
Why is it that in these two incidents (and many more including the Lia Thomas accounts from her team mates), genitals suddenly have to be displayed?
What would be the reasoning behind that?

No other religious ideology has ever reached the upper echelons of law and legislation.
We are being FORCED to accept that a feeling inside someone's head allows them to subjugate the very real rights and protections that have historically been put in place for women to PROTECT their privacy, safety and dignity.

"Accidental glimpse"?

Piss right off.

Too busy defending a man who wants to flash women.

i haven’t RTFT but am confused. surely the question for the court is whether the individual was unfairly treated (against how any other male person would have been treated) if they were male and naked below the waist, in a women’s changing room? Ie they are a male flasher.
So I don’t understand how this case could possibly have been won. Even a GRC wouldn’t protect someone in this circumstance, would it?

Thanks again for the link @TastefulRainbowUnicorn. Really urge others to read

You are welcome, though I just saw @BreadInCaptivity posted the same link two posts above mine!

I agree it’s very worth reading. Quite a character sketch, though not one any novelist could get away with in 2022.

It looks like @Hearach15 has all the answers!
Just not to any of the questions directly posed to them

Nope. When the law was passed, exceptions were built in. Including sport, refuges and places where more than one women gather together.

Obviously, your comments do indeed highlight why the GRA should be repealed tho.

No one thought that males would try and say they are actually women with penises and can expose themselves in women's changing rooms!

I'd like to know the answer to that one, too. All I seem to find are sexist stereotypes about femininity or supposedly feeling comfortable with retrogressive female gender roles.

As an aside, if we could actually pretend to erase biological sex, the question would rise why genders would exist at all or why anyone would feel the need to 'identify' with a gender.

What remains after you remove the sex basis for how genders are assigned by the cultures to female and male people are just bundles of personality traits. Not sure why those should get special attention at all.

But of course sexism etc. is not going to pretend that biological sex doesn't exist, so all the gender identity movement does is make sexism much easier to carry out and much harder to stop, as the group it victimises would no longer have a clear name.

The proper feminist approach, in my view, would be to reduce the impact of gender boxes as much as possible, so that most of the time people would be just viewed as individual human beings, while keeping sex-based distinctions in those areas where they truly matter (reproduction, sexual assault prevention, sex-related health issues etc.)

Perhaps they were just out of the shower? Maybe they had cycled into work in 35 degree heat and wanted a complete change of clothes?

They had previously agreed to change in a cubicle.

Why did they renege on that agreement and take their male genitals out in the women’s changing room?

Yes bigotry in the workplace is never great.

"let's keep it as if you were born male, you're male".

Surely you mean "revert" because trans people have been allowed to be legally recognised as their true selves since the GRA was passed in 2004?

Keep up.

Exactly, it's a ridiculous system. Far better to do away with it in it's current format and move to simple self ID like Ireland has had for seven years and which Scotland is now legislating for 😀

Nope let's keep it as if you were born male, you're male and if you were born female, you're female. Use the correct facilities based on the sex you were born as.

I’d be more affected by receiving a bigoted note from work colleagues then I would accidentally catching a glimpse of a willy

Well, the note was not great but I suppose it might annoy people that someone swops gender but changes nothing about themselves except the toilet they use, and then swans around naked from the waist down.

Ok then, what is a woman, so I know if I need to self ID?

Genuine question,
how can transwomen be simultaneously completely indistinguishable from biological women and yet the most victimised minority in our society?
I mean, how can they suffer all this endless transphobic violence if everyone just thinks they’re biological women going about their business quietly?

Exactly, it's a ridiculous system. Far better to do away with it in it's current format and move to simple self ID like Ireland has had for seven years and which Scotland is now legislating for 😀

I agree they highlight the unfair demands of activists, and that will impact on any male who has gender dysphoria.

I still don't understand why the comparator was a woman, though.

The protected characteristic mentioned is gender reassignment. If you are excluded on that basis, it's discriminatory. It can't be discriminatory if you're excluded on the basis of being male. As long as you exclude all other males.

I'm pretty certain there has been case law on this issue already. And it is Stonewall training which tries to get round it.

I don't think the NHS will be appealing any time soon. But would the women concerned have a case? They are being treated differently to men, on the basis of their sex. They are having to put up with feelings of discomfort and fear, purely because they are women.

The person in question has inadvertently confirmed it through the notes and conversation (whether one thinks it's made up, or genuine and/or unfair). They have shown that the women felt worried, concerned for their safety, uncomfortable and upset.

But it's ultimately the responsibility of the trust's HR and legal departments to know the law and ensure that staff are safe.