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Transwoman wins employment discrimination case against NHS for being treated differently from women in changing room

422 replies

Clymene · 19/07/2022 16:55

I thought there was a thread on this but I can't find it. Maybe it was deleted? I shall choose my words very carefully.

The court found that the unnamed employee had been discriminated against because they were asked questions that a woman would not have been about whether they had been undressed in the communal women's changing area.

Judge Davies said: 'A concern about the woman's state of undress in the changing rooms was likely to be connected with the fact that she is a transgender woman.
'This was a communal changing room with a shower cubicle. It did not seem to the Tribunal likely that there would have been a concern about a cisgender woman in a state of undress while changing in such a changing room.
'The Tribunal therefore concluded that [the manager] asked the questions because of a concern that the woman as a transgender woman might be in a state of undress in the female changing room.
There were also several serious allegations against several female co-workers but while the Trust accepts these incidents happened, no perpetrators were ever identified.

There were a number of other complaints but they were dismissed by the Court.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11027471/Trans-NHS-worker-wins-discrimination-case-confronted-underwear.html

I am sure I'm not alone in finding this story very disturbing.

OP posts:
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5
BoredofthisCrap7 · 19/07/2022 19:59

"should treat people with respect and kindness."

In what world is it showing respect to women to walk around with your male genitals on display?

Even so called "cis" women don't walk around naked from the waist down in changing rooms.
Why does respect only work in one direction?

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 19/07/2022 19:58

No one has the right to veto someone's right to do everyday activities in a public space.

changing rooms are not a public space. And this person had already agreed to change in a cubicle. I’m going to keep copy-pasting that … not until it sinks in, I’m not fucking Sisyphus… but until I get bored. Which might be a while because this judgement has annoyed me a lot.

Hearach15 · 19/07/2022 19:57

yourhairiswinterfire · 19/07/2022 19:55

If you excuse that behaviour then you need to go back to primary school and have someone explain to you what bullying is, why it is bad and why you should treat people with respect and kindness.

Can you go and tell that to the transactivists who use threats of death and rape to try and shut women up, who make bomb threats, who doxx women and turn up outside their homes, and to the ones who get visible erections when verbally abusing and intimidating women in public?

Ta 👍

Not sure why you'd think I would condone or view positively illegal behaviour.

JellySaurus · 19/07/2022 19:56

"*let's keep it as if you were born male, you're male".

Surely you mean "revert" because trans people have been allowed to be legally recognised as their true selves since the GRA was passed in 2004?

Keep up.*

Even the GRA doesn't claim that a person can ever change their biology. The GRA allows individuals to create a legal fiction about their actual sex so that under some circumstances they can expect to be treated as if they were the opposite sex. The GRA explicitly states that people with a legally fictitious sex may be excluded from rights that people of that biological sex have. The EA is even more specific about when people of the legally fictitious sex may be excluded from spaces or services intended exclusively for people of that biological sex.

Keep up.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3

Transwoman wins employment discrimination case against NHS for being treated differently from women in changing room
Transwoman wins employment discrimination case against NHS for being treated differently from women in changing room
Transwoman wins employment discrimination case against NHS for being treated differently from women in changing room
yourhairiswinterfire · 19/07/2022 19:55

If you excuse that behaviour then you need to go back to primary school and have someone explain to you what bullying is, why it is bad and why you should treat people with respect and kindness.

Can you go and tell that to the transactivists who use threats of death and rape to try and shut women up, who make bomb threats, who doxx women and turn up outside their homes, and to the ones who get visible erections when verbally abusing and intimidating women in public?

Ta 👍

MoltenLasagne · 19/07/2022 19:55

The Tribunal found that the Claimant had a tendency to misremember the detail of events, and in many respects the detail of her evidence or the questions she asked in cross-examination was not fully consistent with the contemporaneous documents.

From the judgement. Having dealt with a vexatious complainant myself who also had a tendancy to "misremember" events I think the management did a pretty good job.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 19/07/2022 19:55

nepeta · 19/07/2022 19:39

That’s the crux of it. The court thought that the question was whether they were unfairly treated relative to a woman behaving the same way.

The court actually uses the term 'cisgender woman' in the findings...

Captured.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 19/07/2022 19:54

Such an odd thing for anyone to say anyway.

indeed. I think that the multiple female colleagues who were personally accused of saying it, even though the accusations were subsequently retracted, could make a strong case that they were bullied.

LadyVictoriaSponge · 19/07/2022 19:53

Hearach15 · 19/07/2022 19:37

I don't that and even if you can many other people can't and that's causing quite a few problems:

inews.co.uk/news/uk/butch-lesbian-public-toilet-women-abuse-government-review-gender-neutral-facilities-833787

Show quote history

Women are always far more convincing initially when they become trans, so I can see why a so called butch lesbian would make some people think they are male for slightly longer than a nanosecond but we would still know they are female. You can try and convince yourself that men transitioning to women are indistinguishable from biological women, they really aren’t, no matter how much you want it to be so, that’s just the way it is, we know a man when we see one, it’s built into our DNA to recognise a male.

Deadringer · 19/07/2022 19:53

The transwomen overheard the women complaining about the fact that they had facial hair, and didn't even dress like a girl, so does this mean that this person was presenting as male, but demanding to be treated as a woman. It's not really surprising that the rest of the staff were pissed off, especially considering that despite all the accommodations that were made to treat this person as female they still couldnt resist getting their tackle out.

Hearach15 · 19/07/2022 19:52

Dontwanttoberudeorwastetime · 19/07/2022 19:51

If you excuse that behaviour then you need to go back to primary school and have someone explain to you what bullying is, why it is bad and why you should treat people with respect and kindness.

Unless they’re biological women who dare to say “no”

Say no to what? People changing next to them? No one has the right to veto someone's right to do everyday activities in a public space.

Staffy1 · 19/07/2022 19:51

"Co-workers even said 'that thing may rape me', an employment tribunal heard."

That was apparently said between colleagues and overheard by them, not said to them, so not bullying, although not nice. Such an odd thing for anyone to say anyway.

Dontwanttoberudeorwastetime · 19/07/2022 19:51

If you excuse that behaviour then you need to go back to primary school and have someone explain to you what bullying is, why it is bad and why you should treat people with respect and kindness.

Unless they’re biological women who dare to say “no”

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 19/07/2022 19:50

If you excuse that behaviour

But I didn’t, did I? You need to read a lot more carefully. I was pointing out that “known bully” is incorrect. There is no known bully.

Original poster
Clymene · 19/07/2022 19:49

I think what this case clearly shows is that the GRA is a terrible law which causes no end of conflict with the EA and it needs scrapping.

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ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus · 19/07/2022 19:48

Babdoc · 19/07/2022 17:10

I hope this gets overruled on appeal. Otherwise we may as well legalise indecent exposure and flashing. The perpetrators will simply have to claim to be transgender to get away with it - in any women’s changing room or toilet.

Already legalised in California, if you remember the Wi Spa case. I can't see any reason why the same thing wouldn't already be happening over here, whether legal or not. After all, we male-bodied people are already using women's facilities, and no one dares to challenge them for fear of being called transphobic (whether or not the person is transgender).

Hearach15 · 19/07/2022 19:47

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 19/07/2022 19:41

Says a lot that you consider a known bully a victim in this situation.

Known bully? Not so much. Despite an “exemplary” investigation the perpetrators of the dramatic notes and the women who had the interestingly detailed conversation were never found.

I wonder if the perpetrator of the transphobic arson attack this person was previously victimised by, ever got caught?

"Co-workers even said 'that thing may rape me', an employment tribunal heard."

"The transgender woman was also left 'crying and shaking' at work after she was told in a note left in her locker to 'get out you tranny freak'."

If you excuse that behaviour then you need to go back to primary school and have someone explain to you what bullying is, why it is bad and why you should treat people with respect and kindness.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 19/07/2022 19:41

Says a lot that you consider a known bully a victim in this situation.

Known bully? Not so much. Despite an “exemplary” investigation the perpetrators of the dramatic notes and the women who had the interestingly detailed conversation were never found.

I wonder if the perpetrator of the transphobic arson attack this person was previously victimised by, ever got caught?

yourhairiswinterfire · 19/07/2022 19:41

Slothtoes · 19/07/2022 19:26

i haven’t RTFT but am confused. surely the question for the court is whether the individual was unfairly treated (against how any other male person would have been treated) if they were male and naked below the waist, in a women’s changing room? Ie they are a male flasher.
So I don’t understand how this case could possibly have been won. Even a GRC wouldn’t protect someone in this circumstance, would it?

Peter Daly (employment and discrimination solicitor who was involved in Maya's case) tweeted after being asked:

'Yes, I would say so. The comparator needs all of the characteristics of the claimant except for the protected characteristic. Claimant and comparator need to be of same sex (biological, per ss.11/212). I think this judgment wrongly decided.'

-

'I don’t have an instant answer as to the effect of a GRC. But given that none is mentioned in the judgment, I don’t think it’s safe to assume C had one. It’s possible that ET was being very cautious around s.22 GRA 04. But C was anonymised and Reporting Orders were available too.'

twitter.com/peter_daly/status/1549446302286618626

nepeta · 19/07/2022 19:39

That’s the crux of it. The court thought that the question was whether they were unfairly treated relative to a woman behaving the same way.

The court actually uses the term 'cisgender woman' in the findings...

Original poster
Clymene · 19/07/2022 19:39

@Hearach15 - if you haven't read the judgement, you might want to.

OP posts:
Original poster
Clymene · 19/07/2022 19:39

Slothtoes · 19/07/2022 19:26

i haven’t RTFT but am confused. surely the question for the court is whether the individual was unfairly treated (against how any other male person would have been treated) if they were male and naked below the waist, in a women’s changing room? Ie they are a male flasher.
So I don’t understand how this case could possibly have been won. Even a GRC wouldn’t protect someone in this circumstance, would it?

I think (and again IANAL), they couldn't find on that basis. The claimant had bought a slew of complaints against the Trust and colleagues and the only one upheld was not about them exposing genitalia but that they were questioned about it. And that a woman wouldn't have been.

Happened as described above. Was not because of disability, did not relate to sex and was not of a sexual nature. Was because of gender reassignment. The Tribunal concluded that this was less favourable treatment and was detrimental. The Claimant was asked personal and embarrassing questions in a relatively formal work meeting in front of a colleague. That is detrimental. This complaint of less favourable treatment because of gender reassignment therefore succeeds.

All of the complaints were on the following grounds: direct gender reassignment discrimination, direct disability discrimination, unfavourable treatment because of something arising in consequence of disability, harassment related to gender reassignment, harassment related to disability, harassment related to sex or of a sexual nature, failure to make reasonable adjustments for disability and victimisation

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Hearach15 · 19/07/2022 19:38

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 19/07/2022 19:03

Dear god. So a (biologically) male person got to commit exhibitionism, and got to play the victim for being challenged on it.

The tribunal should have been about the breach of the women’s human rights in having to share facilities where they were undressing with a male person. In any just world, anyway.

I see the women as the victims here, even the ones who left the note/had those conversations. They were trying to fight back against the abuse being perpetrated by this male person and the NHS trust that allowed the male person into the women’s changing/shower area.

Obviously the comments were insulting and offensive, and none of it was language I myself would use, but do women really have any obligation to be respectful and courteous toward a male person who is abusing them? This is heading back to the notion that a female victim of rape should be obliged to refer to her rapist as “she” if the rapist identifies as a woman.

This is one reason why women find it so hard to say no. We are punished and penalised when we do. We are made out to be the wrongdoers.

Is it not normal for women to use extremely insulting language about men who have hurt or abused them in some way? Women routinely call men knobheads, pricks, dicks, wankers, wankstains, arsewipes and much more here on this very site.

This male person made a choice to violate the women’s boundaries. Any non-trans male person who made a choice to violate women’s boundaries would be fair game for any amount of abusive epithets. And no one (but MRAs) would really have a problem with it.

The ET judge used the wrong comparator, as many have already said, and should have measured the response against the response any other male person would have faced in that situation. What she did is very, very worrying, and smacks of the same old regulatory capture we’ve seen so much of.

Deeply disturbing that this will very probably have given the green light to I don’t know how many other male people who want free access to women only spaces, and who could want that access for all sorts of reasons, not just if they identify as trans.

Whether this person was intending to cause distress with this exhibitionism or was just seeking the validation of being in with the women, the impact on the women is the same: this is abusive behaviour - the women here were the victims of a sex offence - and we really, really need to start naming it as such.

"I see the women as the victims here, even the ones who left the note/had those conversations."

Says a lot that you consider a known bully a victim in this situation.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 19/07/2022 19:37

I really hope you change yours

ill just bet you do chum 😀

Hearach15 · 19/07/2022 19:37

LadyVictoriaSponge · 19/07/2022 19:35

Absolute rubbish, I and most women can tell they are trans within a nanosecond.

Show quote history

I don't that and even if you can many other people can't and that's causing quite a few problems:

inews.co.uk/news/uk/butch-lesbian-public-toilet-women-abuse-government-review-gender-neutral-facilities-833787