Is CIS a legal term?

As Dorothy Parker famously said of her failure to meet a deadline, "strike that, reverse it".

Transwomen are men. Transmen are women. Is it really that difficult to grasp?

I think if we could agree a climb down on the conflation of sex/gender, protect some single sex spaces and let everybody choose their own descriptors and whether they wanted to stipulate pronouns or not, a lot if the rest would calm down.

Well, of course it would. In this senerio, you've given away lots of single sex spaces, leaving us with 'some'.

What exactly do women and girls get out of all of this? Apart from placating a few men for the time being.

Yes, you do. with the "humans cant change sex" debacle what you are effectively saying is trans isn't a thing, and you know it.

No we are saying people can't change their sex. Changing one's gender identity is completely different as this is how you might perceive yourself. Much like one's national identity can differ from one's ethnicity. I identify as a Scot being born and brought up in Scotland but a genealogist would say I am not ethnically Scottish. Trans people exist and no one is denying this, however, they haven't changed their sex.

The Christian equivalence is interesting. I'm a Christian and have been around MN for years, on many threads where I've been mocked and derided about my imaginary skyfairy friend etc etc, told I must be of low intelligence. My very identity has been under attack, because my identity is wrapped up with my faith.

Now I have also had great interactions with people who don't believe - respectful, even funny (I remember @ErrolTheDragon from this thread for some of these.) I've been gently challenged and asked to provide evidence for any claims I wish to make. All fair enough.

Now I could easily say that these interactions - both unthoughtful attacks and thoughtful, educated challenges - are attacks on my identity and they erode it. I could then say that everyone should just stop making any negative comments at all about my faith - but more than that, they should start to make my faith claims for themselves. They should recite the Nicene Creed and mean every word, because if they don't do that it's mean to me and erodes my identity.

I could ask for those things. I could try to make sure that if people do not do these things they are torn down as heretics - and this happened in the past, to every thoughtful Christian's dismay, just as we are dismayed at some of the stuff happening in the US under the Christian right (ugh).

So I see the equivalence, because here we are seeing the formation of a new religion, a new forced creed, a new witch-hunt, and feminists are the big nasty witches who do not comply.

I do not want anyone to forcibly believe my faith. It goes against everything I believe. I do not want anyone to have to partake in anything to do with my faith if they do not want to (and yes, I've observed all the issues with faith schools, HOL etc.) I believe in free speech and freedom of choice for belief, and what we have here is a system that forces people to bend the knee to a belief system they don't believe in. For me, then , cis is not just a word, but the tip of an iceberg.

And I will not comply.

I am sorry your friend feels sad when he hears those words. I feel sad when people mock my faith too. But I can take it because other people's opinions do not shake that faith.

Exactly @FrippEnos .

@beautyisthefaceisee

So your friend will be supported by most people on here.
For most people the issue isn't TMATM or TWATW
but trans women are women and trans men are men.

My transman friend is upset by the fact that people say things that eradicate his identity
What sort of things?

Can I be so bold as to suggest that if people "saying things" can eradicate something, then that something wasn't actually real to begin with?
Words can be powerful, but they're not actually magic.
You can't talk something out of existence.

Straight women are women, as are gay women and bisexual women.

I’ll let you figure out why that is not comparable to women and "trans women".

Does it work both ways here?

And in fact certain people are getting people sacked from their jobs, have their livelihood stopped, arrested, proposing friends and family members should dob people into the police for wrong think and more

I'd trans activists can't manage a simple smidgen of reciprocation and tolerance for people who don't share their beliefs, then they're asking me to subjugate myself to their faith. To say NOTHING of how public institutions like hospitals are drafting policies around gender identity theory, and expecting us all to accept males in women's wards. Stop imposing these beliefs on everyone else.

The answer is no. I don't accept it when people from more traditional religions treat me like shit, and I'm not going to change that for this one.

Well said, Purgatory. Where is any reciprocation at all? Thankfully, the decision promulgated in Maya's EAT and recent full merits hearing will hopefully put a stop to some of this nonsense soon. Whether or not TRAs like it or not, their views are not privileged above those of all others.

In some people's eyes, I'm sure I have. I'm not sure I follow your logic.

"None of us get to decide what people think of us inside their heads" - I assume you've never used any expression on here which dismisses trans people's identity then?"

Why would it mean anything either way? I've just asserted people's complete and utter sovereignty over their thoughts. I am wholly and completely opposed to thought crime. That means I do get to genuinely and 100% sincerely dismiss people's identities in my head.

And guess what, I don't get to make "trans people" like me either. Because it goes both ways. Stop trying to dictate people's thoughts and perceptions.

What I do have a right to do, is to tell people to sod off when they dare to inform me that if I'm not a Protestant, I must be a Catholic, or that I am a heretic. I am not compelled to meekly accept what you tell me about me without answering back.

I don't go around telling trans people that they're "cis", so they and their "allies" should be able to replicate this feat. I avoid referring to trans people I know by the pronouns they dislike, and that is FAR more effort than simply not telling random feminists that they're "cis". And yet, trans activists cannot do it!

I'm a woman, not a doormat. If trans activists can't manage a simple smidgen of reciprocation and tolerance for people who don't share their beliefs, then they're asking me to subjugate myself to their faith. To say NOTHING of how public institutions like hospitals are drafting policies around gender identity theory, and expecting us all to accept males in women's wards. Stop imposing these beliefs on everyone else.

The answer is no. I don't accept it when people from more traditional religions treat me like shit, and I'm not going to change that for this one.

Difficult to do when their offensive views are factual though. hence the "humans cant change sex" which should be the feminist boards' motto.

So you agree that 'human's can't change sex' is a fact? OK.
But you don't think we should say this is a fact because some people find it offensive. Is that correct?

So how far are you prepared to go in order not to hurt someone's feelings?
If someone tells you humans can change sex do you let it go and say nothing?
If someone tells you humans can change sex do you agree that they can?
If someone tells you they have changed sex do you agree with them that they have?
Do you expect other people to agree that humans can change sex?

And if someone said that humans cannot change sex what would you do?
Say nothing?
Disagree with them (even though you have said yourself that this is a fact)?
Report them?

What was so offensive about Artichokes post? Nothing said in it is untrue or remotely nasty.

Trans people are ill served by the whole TRA agenda it would seem. Somewhat ironic.

Trans people are ill served by people telling them that to defend single sex spaces = genocide

So as a Christian can I demand everybody that the bread and wine truly be one the body and blood of Christ, and call them names and threaten them I’d they refuse to believe this? Can I demand anybody who does not believe Jesus existed should be sacked? Can I compel everyone to come to church every Sunday? If not why not? Why should I be compelled to believe in gender if I can’t compel everyone to accept my religion?

The literal equivalent would be me saying "there is no such thing as Christians".

No it isn't. It's exactly the right analogy, because we accept that there are people who consider themselves trans and believe certain things whether we agree or not. Same with Christians. If you don't believe in god, it's just something that other people believe, and I'm happy to respect that people have different beliefs right up to the point that their beliefs are prioritised over my rights.

Thanks. I've taken a lot from the discussion, even posters I don't necessarily agree with its food for thought. Signing off just now though, i'm really pissed off at Artichoke's post and I don't want to take the bait and find myself suspended.

Have a good evening!

Of course trans is a thing. But when you transition, you don't change sex. You are undergoing social and/or elective surgical changes to feel more comfortable with yourself. But you don't change sex. And single sex spaces are still needed and if you aren't prepared to accept that, you are creating a problem for yourself.
Stamping your feet or shouting that I am denying your existence won't change that.

I don't believe in trump cards, it's not a game.

no, I dont "Know this", as I completely and utterly disagree, and I'm not going to engage further as I find this entire post totally fucking offensive and nasty.

Cool. I can call you all cisgender then, right? You can't tell me not to.

You can, yes. We all have freedom of speech, however rude and offensive. But it's meaningless and inaccurate for people who don't share a belief in gender identity ideology.

He's fine wiht transman, he's a pretty reasonable individual. But the comments of "woo woo" and all the rest of it, the daily dismissal and mocking that goes on, would be hurtful to him because it is dismissing something he feels very strongly.

If anyone thinks he's dim enough to believe he literally can change sex - well, thats on them.

You have no idea who you're talking to here or what they live with. Being TQ+ is not the automatic trump card you seem to think it is. You say your friend feels 'eradicated' if people refuse to join in with the ideology, say the words, accept the labels? Yes, they are upset about not being able to control others to create the environment they wish to live in. Other people are not props. Telling people how sad it makes your friend when they won't co operate with things they find offensive, do not agree with, don't want to participate in? Yes, that's coercively controlling. 'Be kind' and talk about sad friends in extreme pain is coercively controlling to try and get them to do what you want against their will. You know this.

You can call people whatever you want. The point is that you cannot make them care, or agree, or co operate.