LibDems and the LBGAlliance

This is really just a load of justifying nonsense. Firstly, if by 'trans lesbians' you mean biological males who identify as lesbians, then that is in fact 'bad faith Self ID', as they are not lesbians by any rational definition.

Also, regardless of whether it is a 'genuinely held self-concept', that doesn't mean it should take precedence over the needs of the other people in the group. How many women were made uncomfortable by these males being present, but perhaps felt unable to say so for being called hateful? Who are you to decide what every woman in that group should be comfortable with?

These man should start a support group for themselves instead of pushing in on a women's group.

We simply have had no experience of bad faith self-ID processes in our groups.

How would you ever know if you don't know what a lesbian is?

For the tiny minority of trans lesbians that do join and regularly participate this place has usually been arrived at after a hugely traumatic period of reflection and pain where they lose many other support networks and expect abuse around every corner

Surely one male calling themselves a lesbian makes the group cease being a single sex or lesbian group? I don't understand show you can say with any seriousness that your groups are lesbian groups but you have males in there. Which automatically makes it just a group.

We simply have had no experience of bad faith self-ID processes in our groups.

For the tiny minority of trans lesbians that do join and regularly participate this place has usually been arrived at after a hugely traumatic period of reflection and pain where they lose many other support networks and expect abuse around every corner. It is a not a frivolous or bad-faith process, but a genuinely held self-concept, and I am not about to call them out on that. The relief and appreciation that they feel, that any of us feel actually, knowing what it's like to be a minority and to have a space where you feel welcome and supported without someone questioning who you are, is very evident.

They are probably, out of everyone, least likely to do anything that would compromise their ability to participate in the groups as these are lifelines for them as they are likely to have far fewer options for social support than most of the non trans lesbians present.

But yes, I know who I am thanks, and I know my identity. And my identity is certainly not threatened by the inclusive, welcoming policy I support and believe in; it is only enhanced.

I used to be a Young Lib member years ago in South Wales. We had trouble opening up the Club to other than men, women NOT allowed to play Snooker, "Well they might rip the cloth"!

So if someone said 'a lesbian is a person who votes Tory' you would think that was fine?
And if they based their policies on it? And homosexual women were no longer protected, described by or provided for by anything calling itself for 'lesbians' unless they happened to be Tory voters?

What a profoundly stupid take. To fling words around and pretend they have no meaning. And to be proud of that stance.

It really saws the green why children baby that sort of hello.

I find the fixation and obsession with definitions to be divisive, distracting and focussed on othering and alienating people. I feel that the energies devoted to it are counter-productive and will not achieve anything of real benefit to any of the players involved.

Do you now.

So you define yourself as lesbian, you go to lesbian spaces and yet you have no idea what one actually is? What a surprise.

"I was told that lots of older grassroots libs left the party around the time of the coalition and shortly afterwards, and the gaps were filled by people with other agendas that weren't anything to do with traditional lib values. They sort of took over a shell of an empty party?

I don't know if that's true. But judging by their online presence, none seem very liberal, in the traditional sense."

I take liberal to mean something else personally when referring to what emerged from The Liberal Party. See the party at the time of Jeremy Thorpe and Cyril Smith

We know now that several countries have introduced more relaxed forms of gender self identification, and that these have been in place for many years and there has been no demonstration of detriment to women in these countries.

like Iran for example? They’re very big on trans rights….

That’s a lot of words for no I can’t define lesbian in a way that meets my point and is not homophobic. So if we’re not to get hung up on definitions, you’ll have no problem with referring to transwomen as males who believe they present as women.

I find the fixation and obsession with definitions to be divisive, distracting and focussed on othering and alienating people. I feel that the energies devoted to it are counter-productive and will not achieve anything of real benefit to any of the players involved.

We know now that several countries have introduced more relaxed forms of gender self identification, and that these have been in place for many years and there has been no demonstration of detriment to women in these countries.

We even have a more controlled example of how self ID / nondiscrimination laws operate in practice, when UCLA examined how different locales in Massachusetts fared in terms of police reports of assault and privacy violations depending on the locale's approach to transgender inclusive public accomodation laws. They found no link between trans inclusive policies and bathroom safety.

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/ma-public-accommodations/

www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/no-link-between-trans-inclusive-policies-bathroom-safety-study-finds-n911106

I am on board with people being able to self-identify, and if the identity of lesbian feels like the best fit to that individual at that point in time in their life who am I to say otherwise. I am not the creator and author of definitions, none of us are, and no one person or entity presides over their use.

Language lives and terms and definitions expand, there is nothing new here, that is simply how language operates, as history has shown us for millennia.

I have been part of lesbian social groups for a couple of decades; there has been no massive influx of trans lesbians, if anything more recently it is going the other way; we are seeing a lot more engagement with younger non trans lesbians currently. I have never known any safety concerns over trans lesbians present, but we have certainly needed to speak to some non trans lesbians about their behaviour. And that is what we should be focusing on, any concerns with an individual's behaviour, not our own ideas about the legitimacy of someone else's ID. The fear mongering and moral panic is misplaced.

The "administrative error" excuse and apology were so feeble, I doubt they even expected to be believed. They got heaps of praise on twitter from anti+LGBA twits thanking them for their "error".

I was told that lots of older grassroots libs left the party around the time of the coalition and shortly afterwards, and the gaps were filled by people with other agendas that weren't anything to do with traditional lib values. They sort of took over a shell of an empty party?

I don't know if that's true. But judging by their online presence, none seem very liberal, in the traditional sense.

True but that was because of the tuition fee rise which went against their manifesto commitment. They got nothing out of propping up the Conservative Government really, Clegg was a terrible negotiator, except it is interesting that even some of the Tories got into the 'gender woo'...did this actually start under Cameron?
Was it all cross-party/Stonewall stuff and therefore slipped under the radar?

It'll have to come, as they are neither Liberal, nor Democratic any more.

Not rtft so apologies if this has already been posted but LGB Alliance have basically burst that 'it was just an administrative error' balloon

How astonishing.

The Lib Dems killed their party stone dead when they jumped into bed with the Tories shame because if they hadn't done that they may have actually have stood a chance of winning an election where as the Tories have had no competition for years.

Oh yes please @suggestionsplease1 confirm whether you mean males who are claiming to br
lrsbisns or actual lesbians. Ur female homosexuals. At the moment you are sounding very homophobic to be honest. Claiming a lesbian is not sane sex attracted , but could be in a heterosexual sexual relationship if she found the right partner is what the right wing bigots do. It’s called conversion therapy and you suggesting it is disgusting.

@suggestionsplease1

I described the reality of the world that I and other lesbians I know occupy.

Can you define what it is you mean by 'lesbian'?

Because as we established earlier, the definition of 'lesbian' often includes 'male who likes women' aka straight men.

Not rtft so apologies if this has already been posted but LGB Alliance have basically burst that 'it was just an administrative error' balloon

Please consider joining us. You can still be a supporter if you aren't a current party member

liberalvoiceforwomen.org/get-involved

@theclangersarecoming On the subject of lesbian bars I'm reminded of a column in the Guardian by Rebecca Solnit. She attended the last night of the last lesbian club in San Francisco - gay capital of the universe.

In passing , she gave an approving nod to the many male born 'lesbians' at the event.

Our Becky is never going to win a Join the Dots Competition.

Look at what happens when a woman says the mere word 'woman'...the male rage is off the scale. How fucking dare you suggest they are all lying.

I agree. Completely at odds with the reality of what we see that women experience in social media, political parties, workplaces etc. TRAs call lesbianism a "genital preference". Stonewall won't stand up for them, its CEO called them sexual racists. We see the lies and half truths of this movement's supporters.

I described the reality of the world that I and other lesbians I know occupy.

The world where we know each other and other gay/ bisexual/ trans people personally and recognise that we are not actually the living embodiments of the latest negative stereotypes and sound bites that happen to be doing the rounds online.

I responded to a post requesting evidence for a previous statement saying that the vast majority of lesbians are trans inclusive, and I responded to the best of my knowledge and experience on this point. Are you saying people shouldn't try to answer questions that are posted here?

You gave your opinion, your own experience, quite determinedly... like a fact! You went to some lengths to do that. Which it isn't.

When you answer questions honestly that doesn't tend to happen.

I responded to a post requesting evidence for a previous statement saying that the vast majority of lesbians are trans inclusive, and I responded to the best of my knowledge and experience on this point. Are you saying people shouldn't try to answer questions that are posted here?