Julie Bindel & Sharron Davies can't believe women centre their politics around the trans issue

Yes, it's either a horrifying lack of critical thinking or, they understand it perfectly but just want to look good to certain people.

Either way, they are not general qualities I want in a government.

Wes Streeting did start to give a bit of hope a few months ago, I think he gets it.

People have always voted on single issues. People vote "anyone but X". People uninterested in party politics vote on local issues (being a good constituency MP is sadly underrated). People vote tribally because that's how they were brought up to vote. People vote because they like "the cut of X's jib/wouldn't buy a used car from Y".There are many swing voters.

I hate being lectured on how I should/shouldn't vote, especially by those in the public eye. The polling booth is anonymous and private. You don't have to justify your decision to anyone but yourself.

I honestly believe that if Labour dropped this self-id, men can have a cervix crap, and all the ridiculousness that comes with it, they would stand a far better chance in the general election.

People really want to be able to vote for them!

Also some posters on here need to look at who Julie Bindel is and the work she does before suggesting she doesn't understand what she's saying.

It's not the fact that a potential PM says TWAW. It's the lack of criticality, the casual disregard for women, the wild-eyed passion, the refusal to listen, to engage in discussion and, quite simply, to provide reasons which seem to go with the position. These are not qualities I want to see in the person running the country.

There are many other reasons not to support someone, but a refusal to acknowledge material reality is a clincher.

I agree with them too.
Keir Starmer has a track record whilst DPP of actually making changes to benefit women, around rape prosecutions. Many of which have since been undone by the Conservative government, leading to a situation where rape is effectively decriminalised.
Women, especially single parents, are disproportionately bearing the brunt of the cost of living rise and the social care shortages. The Conservatives actively put in place policies that cause this.

Until Labour actually state they will change the law to TWAW I'll vote for them. I actually think over the last couple of years it's becoming increasingly obvious what impact a TWAW law would have, and its become a mainstream issue. So I doubt any law change would happen.

Also let's not forget this whole TWAW/self ID policy direction was set by Maria Miller, a Conservative, when she was in charge of Women and Equalities.

Anyone who vote Conservative solely because "they know what a woman is" is not a feminist. Yes, the Conservatives know what a woman is and they use that knowledge to the detriment of women.

Well the good news for them is I don't centre 'the Trans issue', I centre Women's issues and women's rights. Despite the volume of TRA voices and the disproportionate influence they have the Trans population are a tiny minority. Minorities shouldn't be discriminated against and absolutely need the same rights as everyone else but they shouldn't they have all the power. Women on the other hand make up over 50% of the population. Sharon and Julie are sadly falling into the trap of believing it's all about the Trans, it really isn't - it's all about women. And when I say say women I mean adult human females, however they identify, what ever label they put on themselves.

Of course they are right - it's why there are countless threads on here with us discussing who the fuck we could vote for at the next election. If the trans issue was the only thing anyone cared about, most people here would easily just vote Tory with no hesitations.

The problem a lot of us have is that we have watched in horror at the absolute bullshit that Labour politicians have spouted in order to desperately hold up a ridiculous ideology- David Lammy saying one can grow a cervix, Dawn Butler saying babies are born without a sex, Lisa Nandy saying that male rapists should go in a female prison if that's where they 'feel most comfortable'.

I don't think any of them believe it, they are just saying it because they have backed themselves into an ideological corner. And that is pretty terrifying and not what I want from a government either. Because if they are willing to make themselves look like complete incompetent bellends on this issue, what else are they willing to do?

But the Tories......? Well, where to start really!

It's quite striking that just as we have all become much more polarised in our general political discourse, especially on social media, a lot of us have become a little less polarised in our party allegiances. The two party system has become so utterly fucked, and there are so many existential problems with both the Tories and the Labpur Party that it is becoming harder and harder to give allegiance to either of them. Instead, we need to be more lightfooted, to be prepared to create and support various temporary 'alliances of the sane', 'alliances of the competent', 'alliances of the honest'.
There is no way on God's earth that I would support the Tory party. But say there was a resurgence of the relatively principled Tories that were ousted when BJ first took over? Say they adopted a constructive relationship with Lib Dems and elements of the Labour Party in order to get electoral reform or to defeat some gender bullshit)? I would take those groupings on their merits and support them insofar as it seemed to me to be net-beneficial to the issues I cared about.

Because gender critical women hav been forced off of so many left-wing platforms, and because there has been so much disinformation about ther alleged solidarity with the right, it is natural that there should be some angsty discussion about whether we should or can support parties whose general economic and social policies we abhore. But there is a danger that the discussion overplays a dichotomy.

In reality there will be lots of small practical decisions in which we weigh up GC issues against other issues. That's going to happen across the board now that the parties are necrotic. Especially, I think, in relation to getting voting reform.

I 100% agree with this.

Reality bites when you are in government (well as long as you are not Boris)

Just can't vote for anyone who says trans women are women. If they can lie about that, and it affects 51% of the population, they can and will lie about ANYTHING.

I thought it was an odd position at this time because most of us aren't choosing a PM. Only Tory Party members are choosing one.
It struck me as misguided classism. Bindel was implying only women who don't care about 'real' issues would prioritise being GC.
But in RL, women living in poverty; women who are part of minority groups (whether race, disability, etc); women in the care system, health system or justice system - they are the most impacted by GC issues and the erasure of women in law. Middle class and upper class women can buy themselves into single sex spaces. Women on the margins are losing services and funding precisely because of gender ideology.
If a party or politician will lie about biological sex, it is a good barometer of whether they can be trusted, whether they can be bought. It's not just about sex. It's about integrity.
Personally I'm not voting for a party or politician that doesn't know my sex. We need people in the public sphere saying no to gender ideology. This can't and shouldn't be consigned to being a feminist issue. Codifying and promoting disassociation from reality is dangerous. This isn't a time to hide denial under 'put other issues first' bullshit.

One in four families in this country are single parent families.

Eighty per cent of these single parents are WOMEN. MOTHERS.

It is very clear that we are suffering disproportionately because of the economic crisis.

And consequently our kids.

There have been enough calls for SiNGLE PARENTS TO BE ACCORDED PROTECTED STATUS.

IT IS ABOUT TIME THIS WAS PUSHED FORWARD.
www.singleparentrights.org/

This is not OFF TOPIC we are a way bigger group than trans people. And this issue affects our kids so if you count those in - we are a HUGE group..

Don't forget Mordaunt tried to bring in some TRA shit by stealth and the Lords stopped it. Tories can't be trusted

And? If you come to FWR and read threads you will see women discussing womens rights (boringly still referred to as Trans Issues).

Pop over to any other forum - including sub fora here - and you will see the very same women discussing poverty, food banks and all sorts of other issues.

Don't let FWR blind you to that. That's why it exists after al. To make every woman who discuses womens rights look 'other', fanatical even. We've all seen the Twitter scrapes, you are making a different version of the same error!

I agree with JB and SD on this. I also hate the way that nuance and conflicting views seem not to be allowed in any debate. Yes I strongly disagree with the Labour Party's stance on trans rights. I also think this Conservative government is incredibly damaging to the country in almost all other ways. They are no friend to women, in general. My priority in the next general election will be getting rid of the tories and that is how I will use my vote. In my area this means voting Labour.

I suspect that, in government, the reality of a hardline TWAW approach would mean that there would be a softening of Labour's approach (which will probably piss off both sides). This is in part due to the work of feminists who have exposed the scandal of trans kids' treatment, crowdfunded important legal cases, etc.

It's a tough one. I'm very conflicted. I see what our sisters in Ireland are having to deal with- unpicking a self-ID law brought in by stealth and we need to avoid that. But this shower in government are so shit .

That's nice. Fwiw, I'm never going yo vote Tory but as a genuinely poor full time carer on CA I'd like to know how eg Labour will make things financially better for me, especially after Reeves declaring they will crack down on benefits payments meaning I either slip further into poverty or 2 very disabled older people have no one to care for them.

I know it's derailing the thread but this unfounded Labour Good narrative is ridiculous because every policy aim they've had for the last decade or so has either been to reduce welfare for the poorest or to ignore the problems. Same with the Tories under Cameron's ideology of course but things have changed. This year I'll be getting £1200 off the Tories for the cost of living, every penny of which will go into the leccy and gas meters. Wasn't Labour's plan to give about £90? It's easy for people who are relatively comfortable to spout the lazy virtue-signalling that Labour are better, plus it makes them feel good about themselves, but from my viewpoint at the sharp end they're really not going to be better on anything.

I'm not saying vote Tory btw, I actually think we need a new style of politics and new, better parties.

Oh dear! Two women deciding women need to change their thinking! Like no woman ever can think of t or more things at the same time. Can never have a number of issues they care about and yet choose to discuss them one at a time.

Yay! I am a fuckwit because having a PM who knows what a woman is holds some importance for me and will influence my vote.

It's not the ONLY thing. It is A thing! Fuck - I am Nuanced!

To me it means he's weak if his willing to lie to make people like him. A disappointment and weak people shouldn't be in charge of the country.

I agree with them too. Even if I think women's rights and self-Id is hugely important, it is not a single-issue vote for me. I accept that for others, it is, and that's fine. I don't think it's a one-way street that if self-ID is accepted, it can never be reversed, for example; I'm not even sure that it would necessarily come into force with labour in power either, despite what they say now. And as for the question about politicians lying, yes absolutely - I think they all do. And while that might make the unfit for office, we don't really have a choice, so have to vote for the overall package that fits best, and for me, that doesn't mean conservative. I think that most of the conservatives resigning this week aren't doing it because they care that much about honesty or integrity, but because they've made a calculated decision about which way to jump to keep their voters and their support and ultimately their job. They all lie. I don't think the Tories support women any more than the other parties.

But that's my choice, and others are free to choose differently.

I think Keir Starmer is trying not to piss anyone off hence why he comes across as bland. I don’t think it’s a bad plan as infighting in the left would not help him even if that makes him seem weak to some.

I’m not convinced the Tories are right on this issue for the right reasons - I don’t believe they are supporting women, I think they are doing this because they are anti trans and reason matters because I think they are anti every minority and vulnerable member of society and I can’t support that - it affects everyone - women too. Not not about being kind. The Tories will fuck over anyone who isn’t the fittest and the strongest.

Anyone who says TWAW is either a liar or deluded.

Not someone who should be running the country, whichever of those applies. But I think most are just liars.

☝This.

If Keir Starmer changed tack and talked about fairness toward women and respected the need for female only spaces I’d not only rejoin Labour, I’d be out canvassing.

If he started 'talking' about it I still wouldn't trust Labour anymore as would think its just a front given their hard line so far. It's absolutely shit as I feel completely politically homeless just now, especially with the shitshow that is the SNP!