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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Julie Bindel & Sharron Davies can't believe women centre their politics around the trans issue

414 replies

ImpossibleDrum · 08/07/2022 07:53

Julie Bindel

You may hate me for this (well, some of you at least, but I cannot BELIEVE that many of you on here are deciding who is good or bad for PM because of the trans issue ALONE. I mean, I KNOW it is an urgent issue, but so are a million other things right now!!

Sharron Davies

I agree with your too Julie. There’s a bigger picture right now with people potentially unable to feed or keep their kids warm this winter. We can keep bringing the sunlight to other issues.

Julie Bindel & Sharron Davies can't believe women centre their politics around the trans issue
OP posts:
FigRollsAlly · 08/07/2022 11:22

Labour don’t have a manifesto yet. This is not the time to be telling them, or any other party, that they can carry on ignoring us because lots of us will still vote for them. They need to know that self id etc is a vote loser and that women won’t be shamed into voting for them.

skinhappy · 08/07/2022 11:22

FourTeaFallOut · 08/07/2022 07:59

Of course they believe it, they just don't like it. That's fine. The good thing about not having idols is that you can take or leave their point of view. I'd have thought that we got into enough of a mess imploring women to put aside their core principles in order to be pragmatic about the greater good, but that's just my point of view.

This.

JustHereWithMyPopcorn · 08/07/2022 11:18

I'm really not bothered by how other people think I should vote, I won't be voting for a party that cannot accept that a women is an adult human female and legislate accordingly. This isn't a one topic vote as it is impacting in so many areas of women's lives.

Numbat2022 · 08/07/2022 11:15

@ScrollingLeaves I agree entirely. I don't think Starmer is doing a particularly good job of being an Opposition. But I see so many people on here saying they can't possibly vote Labour because of TWAW but Boris knows what a woman is. He has literally just been sacked for lying, so why his opinion on this one issue counts, I have no idea.

I also agree with a pp saying that the Tory position on this comes from the same place as Section 28. They're not appalled to find themselves being called bigots for being worried about trans issues, like most women on here are.

Datun · 08/07/2022 11:13

People tend to vote either for a party whose policies will directly affect them, or, for a party whose values align with their own. And in a perfect world, those two things would be the same. But in this, they're not.

Most feminists are shocked that Labour Party isn't getting this. And that's where the disconnect comes in supporting Tories, however reluctantly, because they do.

It's my impression that trans ideology isn't at the forefront for Julie. Her campaigning against male violence, and her experience of women who have suffered because of it, is probably a far more palpable issue to her.

When you've got a bloody and broken woman, almost insensible with pain, in front of you, it will take priority. And of course, there are similar women who are being affected by the trans issue. But that's the nature of priorities, you have to pick one.

What I do find slightly encouraging, in the weirdest way possible, is people coming in here trying to divide women by almost constantly yelling 'well, do you agree with this thing she did, that way she votes, what about this person she knows? Eh? Eh? Do you, do you??'

They're shit scared that women uniting together, is having an effect. Julie Bindel just got a ton of support over the Nottingham debacle. Well, can't have that, can we? Let's stick the knife in.

Well I'm fucking taking the knife out.

Julie Bindel can think or say what she likes about politics which are important to her. I think she's doing a brilliant and mentally crushing job. And I suspect we will vote differently.

<throws knife on floor>

ShahRukhKhan · 08/07/2022 11:11

It's difficult. The Tories are awful on pretty much everythign except the trans issue. If Labour get in, we know they will reverse everything put in place by the Tories.

But we shouldn't be fooled into thinking the Tories are against TWAW because they support women. The result might be the same but it is because they are pro tradition and traditional views on sex and gender. Which isn't really a good thing for women either.

There is no good option for women at the moment.

ScrollingLeaves · 08/07/2022 11:07

Numbat2022 · Today 10:54
He's a politician who wants to appeal to as many people as possible so he can be elected. And if you're looking for an honest politician, the Tory party are the last place I'd be looking

I see what you are saying, but I do associate the origins of ‘spin’ and ‘soundbites’/ leading by ad-slogans
with Blair’s government in general. Not so honest.

The Iraq war is a shameful reminder of that getting out of hand (though I see that was partly just a terrible mistake.)

GoldenSongbird · 08/07/2022 11:03

Women set up my local foodbank. And women make most donations. Women always pick up the bulk of caring, of feeding, of volunteering.

And as recognition, politicians have happily tried to turn every woman's issue into a men's rights one.

Just as people were starting to acknowledge how sex impacted everything (see the fab Invisible Women book) Just as men were starting to be held accountable for abuse (Me Too) with a quick sleight of hand everything becomes about men again and women are supposed to shut up but still put out for volunteering, caring, all the thankless low paid jobs. And, of course, we're still supposed to vote for these liars and MRA-enablers. Nope.

PronounssheRa · 08/07/2022 11:02

Numbat2022 · 08/07/2022 10:54

He's a politician who wants to appeal to as many people as possible so he can be elected. And if you're looking for an honest politician, the Tory party are the last place I'd be looking 🙄

Not voting Labour doesn't = Tory 🙄

If he wanted to appeal to as many people as possible it might be an idea to stop stonewalling women's groups who have been trying to have discussions with the Labour party for a number of years now.

achillestoes · 08/07/2022 10:59

@Numbat2022

So what will Starmer actually do? What are his policies for women, and transgender people?

ScrollingLeaves · 08/07/2022 10:59

Why do they see the issues as necessarily separate?

The allowing and promoting of insidious non-speak, and infiltration of of an ideology, into every part of language/thought/ life, especially children’s, the willingness to forego logical thinking, the spouting of mantras, the disregard for women and children on this issue, - does not inspire confidence in a person’s capabilities regarding any other issues.

Civillservant · 08/07/2022 10:58

AdamRyan · 08/07/2022 10:13

Also- has anyone else noticed that OP basically plopped a negative post about two very vocal proponents of gender critical feminism and now we are basically enthusiastically slating those women?
Divide and conquer anyone?

You have a problem with a woman starting a thread by a renowned feminist on a feminst forum do you Adam?

Numbat2022 · 08/07/2022 10:54

PronounssheRa · 08/07/2022 08:07

For what it's worth I don't think Keir Starmer actually thinks men are women. He's just, understandably, rather desperate not to be cancelled by the far left in his party.

I agree. But doesn't that make it worse? This would mean he is happy to lie and is a coward.

He's a politician who wants to appeal to as many people as possible so he can be elected. And if you're looking for an honest politician, the Tory party are the last place I'd be looking 🙄

ResisterRex · 08/07/2022 10:54

Once woman are redefined legally to mean anyone who wants to be a woman the destruction and chaos to womans protections and services may never be undone.

I agree except I would say:

Once woman are redefined legally to mean anyone who wants to be a woman the destruction and chaos to womans protections and services will never be undone.

And I would decide it on this alone if it came to it because that implies that there are two candidates who are proposing lots of other stuff that I like, but one of them is going one way and one is going the other on this issue. It's a deal breaker for me.

PaterPower · 08/07/2022 10:53

There are other issues, yes, but generally human rights are hard won, too easily lost and very very hard to regain once lost.

Does anyone really think that Ireland will drop Self ID now it’s on their statute books? Will it ever get bad ‘enough’ for women over there that it would force the issue back to the table? Past experience suggests it would take a hell of a lot. Look how long the laundries were in place.

achillestoes · 08/07/2022 10:53

@pastaandpesto

It’s not just their view either. It’s their willingness to see their view imposed on others by mass bullying and threats. It’s disturbing, and not (to my mind) consistent with democratic values.

pastaandpesto · 08/07/2022 10:51

I feel torn on this. On the one had, yes, I get what they are saying.

But on the other hand I just cannot bring myself to trust any politician who says TWAW, any more than I could trust them if they said the earth is flat. It fundamentally changes my opinion of their ability to think critically on ANY issue (or - if they don't actually believe TWAW - it means I can't trust them to act with integrity).

So for me, a politician's stance on TWAW goes far beyond the actual issue itself.

FOJN · 08/07/2022 10:50

AdamRyan · 08/07/2022 10:13

Also- has anyone else noticed that OP basically plopped a negative post about two very vocal proponents of gender critical feminism and now we are basically enthusiastically slating those women?
Divide and conquer anyone?

Disagreeing with someone does not mean automatically writing off everything they've ever done. I haven't seen anyone "enthusiastically slating" either JB or SD. I would suggest it's you who is being divisive. Nearly everyone else is having a discussion and expressing their opinion on the statements made by both women.

adealwithgod · 08/07/2022 10:43

I just watched the Mr Menno video that someone mentioned on another thread (the one that compares Ricky Gervais and Nish Kumar) and he lays it all out so clearly.

So you put more importance on a man's POV than a woman's on what is best for women and girls?

OK

achillestoes · 08/07/2022 10:39

@Live4weekend

I never voted for Johnson (as it happens). But you seem to be asking me to acquiesce to serious medical malpractices because of other considerations. I won’t. Sorry.

Live4weekend · 08/07/2022 10:37

achillestoes · 08/07/2022 10:32

@Live4weekend

I know that. May and Cameron let children down very badly. Johnson didn’t, and I am hopeful (with the progress we’ve made) that his successor will do even better.

If we elect Starmer, this continues. I can’t do that. It’s a red line.

Johnson's mismanagement of Covid meant the schools were shut for far longer than they should have been.

That is extremely damaging to millions of kids.

achillestoes · 08/07/2022 10:36

@user1471504747

I don’t struggle to eat. I am aware that the cost of living has soared and that has a huge pull on my conscience. I have always voted Labour. I’m not voting for children to be given sub-standard, damaging, ideological healthcare. Come what will.

GoodThinkingMax · 08/07/2022 10:35

I think there's a real dilemma, and it always has been a dilemma for political/activist feminists.

Do you vote ONLY for the immediate matters of protecting or enforcing women's rights, or do you vote for the least-worst position across a number of issues?

I don't think it's something to feel abandoned or outraged about. It's a real question and has been for the 50 or so years I've been an active feminist & voter.

TinselAngel · 08/07/2022 10:34

Look at your actual life - trans people have zero effect on me

Yeah. I've looked at my actual life and it's certainly had an effect.

user1471504747 · 08/07/2022 10:34

You also seem to be in a fairly well off position to start with to off handedly talk about the price of Lurpack. Do you think there are single issue voters voting for a ban on the increase of the price of spread?

Far, far too many people are absolutely terrified about the price of basic items increasing.

Foodbank useage is soaring, and how many people are still going to be able to donate to all these charities that people are forced to rely on?