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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Advice wanted regarding right to single sex changing facilities

38 replies

onedayiwillmissthis · 07/07/2022 18:11

Hi, long time lurker, looking for advice.

Today I went to the lovely gym/spa I am member of...and there was a transwoman (male) in in the women's changing room!

Have spoken with the owner, who, never having come across this situation before (the transwoman has only recently become a member) is unsure of where they stand. Owner tells me she wishes to be fair and accepting of everyone.

All well and good. In the pool, the gym, the sauna, the jacuzzi etc...but...surely changing facilities should be sex based. Male & female.

Gym does already have a separate, third, changing area with shower, toilet & lockers (presently designated, disabled, male, female and babies) which the owner told me is open to anyone to use. Apparently I could use this space if I am concerned.

Owner has told me she will be contacting UKActive, to get advice and find out the legalities etc of the situation. Having had a swift look at UKActives website, it appears they have been influenced by the likes of Stonewall & Mermaids etc.

Can anyone please point me in direction of clear direction. Have tried EHRC & .GOV. which seem to say that sex based changing facilities are still allowed. I would like to be able to introduce alternative information, as UKActive seem to be all about ...whatever trans want, trans get!

OP posts:
DistaffSide · 07/07/2022 19:38

You could ask the owner if she is happy setting a precedent that any man can use the women's changing room if he says he's a transwoman. If she lets in some men and not others is that because of their name, how they dress or other ID. She's putting herself in a very difficult situation around gatekeeping.

Should anything untoward happen from allowing all men to access that space, would her insurer be happy? She's happy to take the risk that say a camera could be hidden in the changing rooms with images put online. Could you show her some photos of how small hidden cameras can be. Again, I'm not suggesting risk is from transwomen but from predatory men.

onedayiwillmissthis · 07/07/2022 19:34

TeenDivided...gym owner did mention contacting David Lloyd for advice so perhaps that might help

OP posts:
TeenDivided · 07/07/2022 19:27

As I understand it, David Lloyd Leisure clubs separate by sex. (They also have a general family change area). If it is OK for them, it should be OK for your gym.

onedayiwillmissthis · 07/07/2022 19:22

FKATondelayo...communal changing with single very small cubicle. (very small but lovely rural gym/spa). I did previously, when joining ask if the changing facilities were definitely split by sex i.e female & male...this question got me some odd looks but the staff assured me...of course male and female.

Now however, I think the gym owner has fallen for the TWAW belief. She did put a beautiful floral 🌈 PRIDE wreath on door recently! Guess I found out why today.

OP posts:
Artichokeleaves · 07/07/2022 19:22

This is the whole 'alternative facts' thing. Political groups are actively misrepresenting the law and facts about inclusion to places such as this. The EHCR are on the back foot and so is everyone else who has played fair.

It just needs to be asked of the owner: what plans are you making for females who cannot share mixed sex spaces, as TW have three options but females who can't do what....? And if they're from protected groups, have you thought about discrimination claims and oooh look at what Maya Forstater heard from court yetserday, and the several other court cases in progress at the moment that is kind of pulling holes in the whole 'alternative facts and discriminating against females is a positive thing in the name of TQ+ politics and doesn't end in large compensation claims' thing.

onedayiwillmissthis · 07/07/2022 19:12

My worry is that the gym owner is only getting information from UKActive, that appears to push the line that trans people MUST be accommodated as they wish. No mention of any single sex exemption as per EHRC😟

OP posts:
FKATondelayo · 07/07/2022 19:11

There is Sex Matters and EHRC guidance on this - send it to the gym owner.

sex-matters.org/where-sex-matters/single-sex-services/
www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-guide-equality-act-sex-and-gender

Either way 'female' changing rooms should mean female - not mixed sex.

Are your changing rooms communal? Ironically I find the 90%+ communal changing rooms at my gym (there are only 3 cubicles in a very big space) very effective at making clear this is a female only facility. Luckily the gym manager confirms they are split by sex not gender.

onedayiwillmissthis · 07/07/2022 19:06

Artichokeleaves... you have succinctly put into words my view much more clearly than I could (see, this is why I lurk)😆

CraggyIslandTouristBoard...really? Women have NO rights to same sex changing provision?

But the gym owner HAS the right to lawfully exclude the transwoman from the female single sexed areas?

So, maybe it comes down to the gym owner deciding whether to support and safeguard females...or not?

OP posts:
PaleBlueMoonlight · 07/07/2022 19:03

Yes, the law on single sex spaces starts from the assumption that this the norm/wanted and therefore permits you to have them if criteria are met (against the central principle of the Equality Act which is not to discriminate on grounds of sex). In the new climate we need the law to default to requiring single sex spaces, with permission not to have them if criteria are met.

achillestoes · 07/07/2022 19:02

EHRC single sex spaces guidance. It’s perfectly legal, if they want to, to have a policy that says the female changing rooms are for people female at birth.

SimpleHoardOfTruth · 07/07/2022 18:56

Artichokeleaves well said 👏🏼

Artichokeleaves · 07/07/2022 18:39

If the owner wishes to be fair and accepting of everyone they need to consider the females being excluded from all three areas to permit a male person the freedom of all three to take their preferred choice of.

This drives me nuts. The male person involved has a perfectly available option as an alternative for their personal access and inclusion needs. Their needs are met. They are fine. But they want to be in the female space and so feel entitled to ignore everyone else's inclusion and access needs and the feelings of female people who have chosen a female only space for their own agenda. It's selfish. It's uncaring. It's uninclusive. And they have put the onus on females to either quietly give up and go away and let them have it all, which lets be frank is plain male entitlement and dominance. Or the females have to argue back that can the very special males please spare a few crumbs for the lesser beings on the planet if they'd be so very kind.

This is the point I lose all patience or sympathy. If you care about your own inclusion and access then you have a responsibility not to snatch it off other people, and to manage to spare the occasional fuck for someone else other than yourself.

CraggyIslandTouristBoard · 07/07/2022 18:30

fairplayforwomen.com/male-free-toilets-and-changing-rooms/

In short: the gym owner can lawfully exclude a trans woman from the women’s changing rooms but as the law stands there is no clear/absolute right to demand a women-only space.