Woman arrested after stillbirth due to suspicions she had ‘illegal abortion’ (in the UK)

Now arguably she was probably vulnerable in some way if she was willing to go so far as to see an illegal provider, but was that clear to whomever she saw, it's possible that it wasn't. People sometimes try to hide things like that.

I didn't read anything about an illegal provider I couldn't read the independent link but read a different one that quoted it.

It seems like this happened in Cornwall so a place with not many, if any abortion clinics.

I read it as she had considered abortion but for whatever reason carried on with the pregnancy.

I know someone who went for an abortion but at the dating US saw arms and legs and decided to keep it. So I think something like that happened.

Unfortunately she went into labour and delivered a still birth at home.

I'm jumping tot he conclusion that someone read something in her notes or recognised her from a clinic visit.

I would guess at this being a receptionist or ward clerk rather than a HCP.

I think, it was a few years ago, there was a woman who was sentenced (jailed) for inducing a miscarriage with the drugs used legally for early abortion. I'm scrabbling to remember the details but I don't think I imagined the whole thing. Iirc she was nearly full term and got the drugs off the Internet. She claimed the baby (foetus?) was stillborn but refused to disclose what she had done with the child's body. I remember being shocked by this case and I'm very prochoice.

If there were any mental health issues (there must have been), I don't remember them. I don't have a problem with cases like this going to court.

If all abortions in the UK, require the agreement of two doctors, how did the abortion services offered during the pandemic get around this?
There was no involvement of drs whatsoever?
Does that mean I could potentially face prosecution for having availed myself of these services?

Without knowing any further details of the case - I can see it may have been right for HCPs to follow up with the police, but I think that the arrest was totally unwarranted and unjustifiable. Absolutely no reason this couldn't be dealt with by a police interview with the woman at home when she had physically recovered.

I would argue that her health is also a priority.

it’s pretty gristly when you have to report a clinic. Given that there are only 2 major ‘chains’ of clinic in the UK it’s like ringing the police and reporting McDonald's or Coca Cola. Honestly.

And, they need proof. And proof means clients. Honestly it’s hideous all round. I don’t know the details of the case we are discussing but I HAVE reported a clinic and it’s not something (1) we did lightly (2) I ever thought I’d need to do in the 21st century in the UK

We reported the clinic to the police. We cannot afford to loose these services.

You reported the clinic. If this poor woman had had an illegal termination then finding and dealing with the abortionist would be protecting women and abortions in this country. Arresting the woman would not be in the public interests, or protect anyone or anything.

It was an unnecessary, horrific and inhumane thing to do and it should not be possible to arrest a woman in these circumstances in this country in this day and age.

I e emailed my MP and also asked them work towards putting buffer zones around clinics, following the SNPs work.

This is terrifying. There is absolutely no justification for this. If the HCPs thought someone was out there performing unregulated illegal abortions then yes by all means report that - but to report the woman and then for the police to investigate her is completely unnecessary, not to mention traumatising for her, not in the public interest, and just plan gross.

according to the report she sought an abortion through the proper channels but even if she hadn’t, there will have been a reason. And whatever that reason is, even if others find it distasteful or not compelling, it is enough. Her rights and her autonomy should always be the priority.

"We’ve decriminalised abortion in Northern Ireland, it’s time that the rest of the UK caught up on abortion law."

Is this right? I thought under the new law abortion on demand was only available in NI until 12 weeks.

I agree. I am supportive of abortion & participate in them.

TOP is legal to term in the UK but the criteria after 24/40 are stringent.

if you’re having an abortion after 24 weeks It’s really important that it meets legal criteria and is performed safely. This is how we protect abortion for all women.

our local clinic agreed to ‘re scan’ a woman a few yrs ago. She was 24+2 & the clinic was offering to rescan and potentially perform a TOP. They didn’t have the facilities for a TOP at that gestation and were jeopardising abortion for all and their license and her health. We reported the clinic to the police. We cannot afford to loose these services.

Same rights (as women in Northern Ireland) I mean

This is completely unacceptable. We’ve decriminalised abortion in Northern Ireland, it’s time that the rest of the UK caught up on abortion law. (Yes I realise the full irony of what I have just written).
But it’s true. Westminster politicians should not be able to take women’s votes for granted and allow antiquated laws to persist. Please write to your MP and say that we urgently need decriminalisation of the 1967 Abortion Act so that women in Great Britain can be allowed to have the same rights.

Now arguably she was probably vulnerable in some way if she was willing to go so far as to see an illegal provider, but was that clear to whomever she saw, it's possible that it wasn't. People sometimes try to hide things like that.

It's possible they didn't want to let her go home because they thought she was a flight risk or she didn't have a fixed address

Not a particularly crucial light risk compared to criminals in general. She did have a fixed address. She had been in touch with a legal, medical provider if abortions but then had a still birth.

Jonathan Lord, medical director of MSI Reproductive Choices, one of the UK’s leading abortion providers, told The Independent the woman unexpectedly delivered a stillborn foetus at home that was about 24 weeks old. ……. Note the baby was born dead at home. So she had a fixed address.

^The woman, who was in her early forties, had the stillbirth last year after getting in touch with MSI Reproductive Choices to inquire about an unwanted pregnancy and abortion…..,Note, she had been in touch with a legal, medical abortion clinic*

Dr Lord, the co-chair of the British Society of Abortion Care Providers, who shared the woman’s story with The Independent, said: “She was shocked to give birth due to not knowing how far along pregnant she was. She was admitted to hospital.

if a woman contacts legal termination services and ends up in some dodgy backstreet clinic, then it’s also a sign that something went very wrong in how the service handled her case.

Maybe, but I don't think I agree with the idea that it's always the case that a woman seeking such a late abortion will always have some serious medical reason. It would be nice if human beings were like that, but sometimes they aren't. People will do some desperate things that don't meet the criteria of medical necessity, and there are people in the world who don't care, awful as that is. There are people who will try and dispose of or simply neglect a newborn until it dies, no its not common but it does happen.

Now arguably she was probably vulnerable in some way if she was willing to go so far as to see an illegal provider, but was that clear to whomever she saw, it's possible that it wasn't. People sometimes try to hide things like that.

It's possible they didn't want to let her go home because they thought she was a flight risk or she didn't have a fixed address.

You can’t imagine any other kind of ‘extreme predicament’ beyond medical issues?

Not all HCPs in the UK are supportive of abortions either. That’s a very naive view.

regardless, HCPs don’t have to be trying to stop women from terminating a pregnancy for the system to screw up and horribly let a woman down.

Labour MP Stella Creasy said action was needed to enshrine access to abortion in law as a human right and is calling for it to be included in Britain’s bill of rights, which is going through parliament.She said cases where women were suspected of inducing a miscarriage should be approached as safeguarding issues in most circumstances, rather than criminal ones.
From the Guardian:

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/02/women-accused-of-abortions-in-england-and-wales-after-miscarriages-and-stillbirths

Even if she had had an abortion after 24 weeks, any sane person would know that no woman would do this unless for some reason something had gone badly wrong and they had found themselves in an extreme predicament

If you're talking about medical issues, no, this presumably wasn't the reason she was trying to end the pregnancy. If there was some grisly medical complication, she would have undergone a late term abortion properly in a hospital.

Echoing others above, but the fact the HCPs raised the alarm suggest that there was something deeply concerning going on here. UK HCPs are almost always very supportive of women's right to abortion do not have a track record of trying to "stop abortions"--this isn't the Republic of Ireland circa 1970. They will have seen some major red flags going on here.

I agree.

If there’s a backstreet abortionist involved, then that’s the danger to the public - it’s not the woman desperate enough to use that service.

if a woman contacts legal termination services and ends up in some dodgy backstreet clinic, then it’s also a sign that something went very wrong in how the service handled her case.

There is no reason to arrest the woman in this situation.

That was in reply to MiniPiccolo - yesterday 23:54
saying:
Abortion is only legal through the correct channels. This is also to protect the fetus/baby from any suffering in the process, and also the mother.

All I can think is that any woman who was trying to cause their own ‘illegal’ abortion in this country must either:

• Have been horribly let down by the NHS provision for terminating pregnancies. A proper, safe, supported termination and care should have been available to her. Or


• Be in a really terrible personal situation where she was unable to access a safe and legal termination and desperately felt she couldn’t continue with her pregnancy (probably because of the dire situation she’s in).

And then there’s the consideration that it may have been a stillbirth with no unofficial attempts to end the pregnancy. The cruelty of arresting a woman in this situation for illegally aborting her stillborn child is just unimaginable.

Given that I cannot imagine a situation where a woman in this country would choose an unofficial route to terminating a pregnancy if there weren’t some big barrier to her accessing a safe, legal one, surely the only humane thing to do is to err on the side of not ever arresting someone in this situation.

Abortion is only legal through the correct channels. This is also to protect the fetus/baby from any suffering in the process, and also the mother.

From the report: She had been in touch with a provider of correct channels. Then had had a still birth. She told the hospital staff this. They then made assumptions and told the police.

But even if she had had an illegal abortion, not through the correct channels, and the police wanted to look into who that back street abortionist was, how dare they arrest her in hospital after her ordeal xand hold her for 36 hours. What possible threat was she to anyone. How could they think that any but the most sensitive approach was warranted?

Yes, this is what I am thinking, late stillbirths like that aren't common but they also are not so rare that medical staff don't have any experience dealing with them. An illegal abortion at that stage is pretty invasive and dangerous, that represents a danger to the public just as much as some guy doing illegal castrations. There is a lot of scope for it to go wrong.

I'm not sure any health care professional would've reported a stillbirth as a potential illegal abortion unless they had genuine or valid concerns as to why it may possibly have been an illegal abortion.

Depending on how the woman reacted to the stillbirth, on things she said or didn't say - something brought this to the attention of medical teams who deal with stillbirth on a daily basis, and it made them believe she did it on purpose.

Abortion is only legal through the correct channels. This is also to protect the fetus/baby from any suffering in the process, and also the mother.

The police have totally mishandled it, yes. But the medical teams wouldn't have raised an alarm without valid cause. Though I'm pretty sure a post mortem/tissue sampling on the remains would've told them everything they'd need to know.

Unless the fruit is 10 and raped by an adult male.

Not all fruit are equal.

So it was healthcare staff who called the police? Bastards.
And the police have been investigating her for A YEAR AND A HALF. Just sickening.