My children being asked their pronouns by youth group leader

The concept existed. People have felt misgendered for hundreds of years, now they are finally being heard. Just because it's not your experience doesn't mean it's not an experience.

@iamAporcupine

'In the majority of cases'...and therein lies the fault in your argument. Using preferred pronouns includes people whose gender you cannot guess. Because inclusion is a basic human right.

@alisondonut

Thanks, I've already read that essay. I should also point out that I'm female, so don't assume I'm male. I'm firmly of the opinion that if we don't use the pronouns that are preferred by those around us, then we are mis gendering them and that's doing them a disservice. Just as I don't want you treating me as male (because I identify as a female) I also believe in gendering others in the way they would want. Very few people in our world identify with a gender that is not immediately obvious to us, it's not that hard to accommodate those people. I find the push back on Mumsnet against preferred pronouns intriguing. I often wonder how vocal members would feel if their children decided that they had been misgendered at birth and asked to use alternative pronouns. To me, using preferred pronouns is about including others and making their decisions around identity feel validated, regardless of whether those decisions are permanent or transient. I honestly don't understand the push back.

Why should I be forced to ‘show respect’ for something I find incredible misogynistic and harmful to girls and women

Expecially when it has been shown time and time again that respect is not enough. Its not enough to let them.get on with it, and talk to them/treat them just as you would anyone else. You have to hand over total control of your eyes ears and thoughts and your own reality in order to indulge someone else's. That's not respect That's control and abuse. We don't owe anyone that.

‘Gender identity’ is about subscribing to a set of regressive, sexist stereotypes.

I have no respect for that.

Why should I be forced to ‘show respect’ for something I find incredible misogynistic and harmful to girls and women?

This is what I ‘honestly don’t understand’.

Stanley Bostitch above says using pronouns is about inclusion and showing respect for gender identity. I have no respect for gender identity and others have said why it's the opposite of inclusion.

Where do we draw the line - at made up pronouns, maybe? I see no reason to be obliged to use words that don't exist like fae/faer. I won't capitulate to such nonsense.

Judgmental much? Her hair just didn't grow, she was 4 years old, I had never cut it she was just pretty bald until she was 2.5 and it filled in slowly, its also very light. What was I supposed to do, buy her a wig?

She has a feminine name, she was wearing pink trainers with the unisex uniform. She didnt have enough hair to hold a hair clip as it was very fine and straight so they would just slip out and she was playing rounders so really there is not much more I can do for her.

Since she started being bothered by being called a boy I do try to dress her as girly as I can to avoid her being embarassed when people make mistakes.

I'm obviously not 'trying to make her look like a boy' or I wouldn't be making a point that children are not always easy to guess the sex of. Eg girl with short hair, boy called Lou, god forbid a kid who is wearing unisex clothes, there just isn't a massibe difference in the appearance of children

So sometimes it is helpful to ask is the kid is a boy or a girl, and its maybe not the worst thing to ask everyone so the one kid that you cant quite guess doesnt always have to be singled out. That was all.

Names and titles aren't pronouns. I'll call someone whatever they want to be called but when it comes to pronouns they should be sex based. If we can get back to sex based pronouns I'll never gave to hear the phrase her penis ever again.

I'd be tempted to ask why they think it's appropriate to even raise the idea, however indirectly, to children in a religious setting that God made a mistake and may have put them in the wrong body.

I think this is quite pertinent in a religious setting.

And if they come back with nonsense then I'd ask if they think God made a mistake with children who are born with physical "deformities", "disabilities" and/or serious health issues.

Isn't one of the points of the Abrahamic religions, if not some others too, that God doesn't make mistakes?

@CoastalWave ... but if her daughter likes to wear her hair short .. why shouldn't she? Why should she have to conform?

My daughter hasn't worn a skirt or a dress since she was 4.... she has lots of male friends.. plays football and is good at Maths and ICT. She is a girl. A few people did ask when she was younger and some younger kids did say things like, I know DD is a girl but she's really a boy... this was innocent stereotyping and an attempt to give reasons to include her in their gang.

My son had long blond hair and played football in goal. A few people used to say how great it ways that he was accepted in the boys team as one of the boys.. mortified when they realised he was a boy.. at an indoor tournament once, he was in a penalty shootout and got huge cheers from the entire crowd.. I didn't have the heart to tell him it was because they all thought he was a girl!!

I would not nor should not, have ever overruled my daughter's choices of boy shorts, no pink or sparkles and never any dresses nor should I have insisted on choosing my son's hair style

Everyone on here was a child once, and no one had to pronounce their pronouns as a child (this concept didn't even exist 5 years ago).

There is no need for a child to announce their sex and pronouns. This is simply a task to get children to think that they are interchangeable and I have no doubt these parties were waiting for a boy to have a joke and say he was a girl and then the whole class would be given a nice long lecture about gender identity.

Pronoun switching is deliberately antagonistic towards people with dyslexia. So out of politeness use the default pronouns of he for males, she for females otherwise you are discriminating against dyslexia.

If my daughter was consistently getting mistaken for a boy causing her embarrassment and annoyance, I would change her hair. You're in charge of it, not her! It's as if you like her being mistaken all the time (causing attention)

I feel like people now feel the need to make a point all the bloody time about not following 'normal' paths. She's a girl. Not hard at all for her to look like one as a child. Are you deliberately making her look like a boy!?

Using your logic: how about asking everyone who they vote for? Which football team they support? If they prefer coffee or tea? Are they pro or anti the death penalty? Etc etc…

Pointless. Irrelevant to the group’s purpose, and could potentially cause rifts in a group.

No, it's nothing like a name or a nickname. You cannot guess the name or nickname of a person unless they tell you, but you can accurately sex them in the majority of the cases.
'Declaring pronouns' implies that if someone does not tell you their pronouns you would not know how to address them, which is bollocks.

If an adult believes their gender identity (whatever that is) is different to their sex, and want to be treated differently to be more included in the world as you say, they can ask. There is no need for everyone else to declare their pronouns.

In your position op, I think I would draw a comparison with the youth worker opening the session with a prayer or hymn that doesn't align with your faith / denomination - let's say 'God Bless Our Pope' if you're not Roman Catholic. Or, if you'd prefer a non-religious analogy, with teaching them the words to 'The Red Flag' or all 6 verses of 'God Save The Queen' without checking with parents first.

Its not a simple act... it reinforces the idea that there are a set of stereotypes associated with he or she and if you don't conform to the one that matches your sex you must be trans and therefore must conform to another set of stereotypes. By stating pronouns, you are asking women to identify into their own oppression and layering on the impact of erasing sex based protections. It is not a simple act.

Stanley.

Can you do me a favour and read this essay, written by a Mumsnetter several years ago and come back and tell us your feelings after reading it.

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Gender identity is a belief system

if someone as an adult wants to believe that men can in some way have an inner female gender identity which makes them exactly the same as a biological woman that’s fine

it’s not fine to impose this belief on children

But no one is obligated to pretend they believe in gender. Kids shouldn't be being encouraged to lie by adults. That's abusive.

Using pronouns is about inclusion and showing respect for gender identity. I honestly don't understand why it's so difficult to use the pronouns that people ask others to use for them. It's like them saying their name is Samantha but they'd prefer it if you called them 'Sam'...or any other name they have adopted as their own.

asking ppl to declare their pronouns says “I am a person who also believes men are fine and dandy in women a sports, prisons, refuges and in all the programmes designed to increase womens representation in STEM & politics” it is far from a simple and neutral act

@Floella22 exactly.

I will say it again that SOME are breeding a generation of narcissists .

@StanleyBostitch
You may not care what someone else's pronouns are, but they care about their own pronouns. If adjusting your use of pronouns helps someone else feel a little more included in the world, isn't that a good thing to come from a simple act?

it’s not a simple act though, it’s the thin end of the wedge.
I was brought up not to refer to a person as he/she in front of them as it’s rude. What’s wrong with saying their actual name?

It’s a fad - pushed by who? People are just merrily going along with all the fun and glitter and not asking ‘why on earth would we demand people declare their pronouns? Do we demand to know of people are married, vegans or gay?’

My comment was in response to a previous poster who said ' I couldn't give a flying fart what someones pronouns are', not in relation to children at a youth group being asked about their pronouns.