My children being asked their pronouns by youth group leader

Ideas are allowed in school and everywhere else but in school there is guidance (linked above) as teachers/schools mustn’t seek to influence children on some subjects because their position as a trusted authority requires special care be taken. I would imagine this is true of youth workers and OP could refer to it when asking why this is going on. Personally I wouldn’t link to lobby groups because the whole thing will become more problematic.

5zeds · Today 08:24
re:guidelines
You should not reinforce harmful stereotypes, for instance by suggesting that children might be a different gender based on their personality and interests or the clothes they prefer to wear.

“Tell me, are you a boy or are you a girl?” ( Implying this is a rather difficult thing to know)

“Tell me your pronoun, because although you seem like a boy, how do I know?”

Seem to implicitly hint at this.

While teachers should not suggest to a child that their non-compliance with gender stereotypes means that either their personality or their body is wrong and in need of changing, teachers should always seek to treat individual students with sympathy and support.

Also schools were, or maybe are in some cases, using the Genderbread person. I don’t have time to look for links but it is problematic. Safe Schools Alliance has articles on the various outside resources schools were/are using.

There are a few threads where that is discussed in some detail - why believing in immutable sex is 'a belief worth of respect', the legal path that ended with decision and why it is in itself not the definitive law but a protection against discrimination for speaking up!

Many of us followed the various cases in detail so the threads are full and complex. I'd link to one but I am on my phone and the Search thingy is nigh on useless!

Ok I think having read (skimmed) the guidance this is the relevant bit

We are aware that topics involving gender and biological sex can be complex and sensitive matters to navigate. You should not reinforce harmful stereotypes, for instance by suggesting that children might be a different gender based on their personality and interests or the clothes they prefer to wear. Resources used in teaching about this topic must always be age-appropriate and evidence based. Materials which suggest that non-conformity to gender stereotypes should be seen as synonymous with having a different gender identity should not be used and you should not work with external agencies or organisations that produce such material. While teachers should not suggest to a child that their non-compliance with gender stereotypes means that either their personality or their body is wrong and in need of changing, teachers should always seek to treat individual students with sympathy and support.

You should work together with parents on any decisions regarding your school’s treatment of their child, in line with the school’s safeguarding policy and the statutory guidance on working together to safeguard children.

I don’t think it’s saying The idea that children have a gendered mind which could be sitting in the ‘wrong’ body has no scientific basis, and is no longer supposed to be allowed in schools. as pp suggested but it takes a similar stance to the stance on political/religious influence, possibly a harder line in some ways because I don’t think your parents would be involved over religion or politics (though I have no experience to back that up)

if anyone would be interested in reading the guidance

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#using-external-agencies

@5zeds · Today 01:36
Is it possible to read the guidelines and are they applicable across all uk?

If you read the TransgenderTrend article I posted before, I think they link the actual government guidelines.

Look for a heading written in a different colour or underlined to click on. Those guidelines may say if they apply across all the U.K. or not.

Is it possible to read the guidelines and are they applicable across all uk?

5zeds · Today 20:26
“The idea that children have a gendered mind which could be sitting in the ‘wrong’ body has no scientific basis, and is no longer supposed to be allowed in schools”

What do you mean by this?

This was addressed to me. This article below about new D of E RSE guidance would explain what I meant.

Also, see the “Genderbread person” complete with worksheets, pink brain and blue brain, and ‘sex assigned at birth’ terms.

The new Department for Education RSE guidance: what should schools look out for?

www.transgendertrend.com/department-for-education-rse-guidance-schools/

What is your definition of misgendering?

You've deliberately given yourself a male name and then moaning about being misgendered.

Real trans people (the ones who make an effort to look like the opposite sex) are likely to be addressed as the opposite sex.

I've seen too many times Dave the bearded male state he has female pronouns and then moan he has been misgendered as male.

The idea that children have a gendered mind which could be sitting in the ‘wrong’ body has no scientific basis, and is no longer supposed to be allowed in schools
What do you mean by this?

I don't know what you said.. so not commenting on the content.

@SamphirethePogoingStickerist .. I also had a deletion without a message, I emailed [email protected] and they explained and then reinstated..

strawberrylacey · Today 16:40
Exactly. But that doesn't mean people who are trans are actually brainwashed gay people.

Yes it does. Or people who were sexually abused as a child, or feel they don’t fit in because they are autistic and ‘different’ and want a group to belong to, or brought up in care and went through trauma, or felt rejected as they were, or are in a group at school and looking for an identity ……. we are talking about very young people here.

First look into all the other factors which may be influencing them, because unlike being gay which which will do no harm, embarking on a course of puberty blockers and/or cross sex hormones and surgery cannot be taken without serious and permanent effects.

It has been shown that the majority of young people who think they are in the wrong body, but who are not affirmed and set on that course, do desist by the time they are about 20. If they still think of themselves as trans, then that is different.

The idea that children have a gendered mind which could be sitting in the ‘wrong’ body has no scientific basis, and is no longer supposed to be allowed in schools. So, asking children for pronouns, or questioning their sex, is aimed at subliminally hinting that there may be a mismatch and imo is very wrong.

Ooh! You can't report a deleted post any more. So asking will be a tad more tricky that it used to be!

The only reason to know pronouns is to know how to speak about them when they are not there. But the youth trainer will presumably only be teaching them when they are there?

Tbf that's really not true. You use 3rd person pronouns to refer to people when they are there as well. "Jane - Freddie is having trouble with that activity - could you help him?" etc.

I agree it's nonsense and inappropriate though. Asking the kids their names is enough. In the unlikely event that one of them is having uncertainties about their identity at that age, they may very well not want to start stating pronouns anyway!

I have done. I usually do.. and occasionally find I left a snark in that, when read with intent, could be deemed 'naughty'. But this one defeats me.

As I haven't had a deletion message I am guessing I was simply "too direct", it may have felt like a personal attack or something - as I did respond directly to a poster. Those ones I can do nothing about. It is not expected that those who chastise have the same rhinoceros thick hide we women have to have!

KittenKong · Today 16:48
So that wee kid in the US - current poster kid for trans - whose mum is on record as saying that when the kid was little they liked ‘girl’ things and she was scared he was gay (and they couldn’t have that).

She says she beat the kid every day until miraculously he realised he was a girl. now the kid is on TV, at rallies, $$$ a rolling in…

I’m using the sex pronouns here because it’s too bloody confusing to use any other.

I saw that too, Kitten. The mother does actually say she wondered if the child might be gay, and she actually then went on to say she even beat the little child when they did ‘girl’ things. This was as a toddler basically. The child aged 4 had then started talking about ‘Going to join Jesus’ meaning die. As the child was a victim of child abuse, and from what I could see highly sensitive and possibly gifted, it is no wonder they felt that way.

The little boy ( he was at birth) was not like his brothers. This was how the whole thing started.

No one sees the glaringly obvious. An unusual child was born into a US fundamentalist religious family where older brothers conform to typical probably unpleasant forms of masculinity, child is unlike them and expresses the difference as a toddler. Homophobic, abusive punishment follows.

@SamphirethePogoingStickerist ... do ask why you were deleted. These threads tend to be 'brought to MN attention' which sometimes results them being a little quick to delete ... worth asking and clarifying if the deletion reason is not simply silencing an opposing view.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · Today 17:09

I read your post and don’t know why either.

Why was that deleted I wonder? Was I too certain that human beings cannot change sex?

I said absolutely nothing that was derogatory, didn't break any of the 'special rules' for FWR, that I am aware of. I recounted having lived in the 80s, been gender bending, married my gender gender bending boyfriend and having little or no truck with those who cleave unto gender stereotypes.

I told our current chastiser that what she is seeing is not intolerance but women not actually caring about how somebody presents, all that surface decoration (I wonder if that was the naughty phrase?) but that sex is biology, immutable.

I can only assume I was reported for being too feminist - on FWR - on Mumsnet!!

When will this policing of women's thoughts end?

strawberrylacey · Today 16:34
Nobody is 'transing' anyone.

Of course they are. I have seen advertisements for pretend phalluses for tiny children. Do you think they are going on the internet to buy them?

Do you think a confused gay child whose
religion says they are evil is thinking they might be ‘in the wrong body’ for no reason?

Do you think that teenage girls are not being influenced by peer pressure and on-line forums?

Why do you think these youth workers are pushing an ideology? Are they genuinely worried a trans child is being held captive by their own mind if the youth worker doesn’t step in to enlighten them?

Do you think social media really has no agency to it?

Stonewall, Mermaids et al have been infiltrating schools, and influencing the removal of certain words [thoughts] from our language as have institutions following a trend in the US.. Do you think that has no effect?

So that wee kid in the US - current poster kid for trans - whose mum is on record as saying that when the kid was little they liked ‘girl’ things and she was scared he was gay (and they couldn’t have that).

She says she beat the kid every day until miraculously he realised he was a girl. now the kid is on TV, at rallies, $$$ a rolling in…

I’m using the sex pronouns here because it’s too bloody confusing to use any other.

The whistleblowers at the Tavistock were horrified when it became apparent that some parents didn't want gay or effeminate children but transing them meant they would be able to have straight kids.

So yes some parents have been transing away the gay. It's why the activists are trying to put a stop to the CASS review of data of outcomes from transgender children.

Presumably they'd still be trans without us? So why do we and our children need to be involved in it?

Why are we needed? Just be trans and leave us out of it