Baroness Nicholson on Regent Street flags

You're right that most LGB people support trans people. This is also because we are more likely to know them and thus are actually far more educated on the issues than most straight/cisgender people.

I can't speak for cisgender people because I am not one. However, if you think the reasons to limit what access a trans identity gives a person to the spaces and resources of the opposite sex are simply because people don't know enough about trans people or don't have lovely trans friends you are missing the point.

I believe the experience of having a female body in a sexist society is meaningful enough to justify rights, existence and a voice separate to male people of any gender identity.

I do not want a person who has not lived as female from birth taking public or professional roles where they speak for female people. Firstly because I don't, based on the things said by the most visible examples of people who have put themselves in exactly those roles, think those people truly understand what living from birth as female is like, and secondly because female people are already underrated and like any underrepresented group they need and deserve to see people like them take active and visible roles.

I do not want a person who has benefitted from male privilege for 40 years taking prizes and opportunities intended to build up female people because that person has identified as a woman for 5 years.

And none of that is anything to do with fear, dislike or disbelief in trans people. It's do to with supporting female people in our centuries old fight against sexism. And as a female person I sure as hell know what I'm talking about.

Honestly, hardly know any. My housemate said the other day "Sometimes I forget straight people exist" and it really rang true for me.

I don't suppose anyone is denying that you probably know a lot of heterosexual men.

That's the trouble when you work soo hard to redefine homosexuality in general and lesbianism in particular.

You’ve asked them all right? You do know that we had transsexuals back in the dark ages?

You're right that most LGB people support trans people. This is also because we are more likely to know them and thus are actually far more educated on the issues than most straight/cisgender people.

I note @Conflictedunicorn that when you are given repeated evidence of Nicholson's homophobia, anti abortion and poor use of evidence you enter into a bizarre fantasy world about the sexual preferences of your critics.

You manage to pretty much exemplify the behaviour of an entire movement right ther

I took along a selection of mini flags for people to wave, representing a range of identities, and the trans flag was definitely the most popular. Probably because many of us know how it feels to face the kind of hostility that trans people are facing today, and we want to show our solidarity with them.

This is very common with the LGB people I know as well. They see themselves reflected in the current debates about what limits, if any, a trans identity should have.

While that is totally understandable, viewing the current questions about trans identity through the lens of their own experience of sexuality means they don't engage with the substance of the concerns, and leads them to give unconditional support to things they would be less comfortable about if they looked at them properly.

Sorry @Hearach15 got carried away and changed your name. But heartache does sound better so I’m going with that.

Ooh he antidascist could be the third corner of the love triangle! I can see it now, Who will heartache choose, the dashing but optimistic aseries or the younger but more vocal antifa. This novel writes itself. I’m the next Barbara Cartland.

I'm sure you do like the idea of personal realities, and the idea of demanding that everyone else joins in on them! Bit like a child who insists that everyone has to play Let's Pretend. Except it isn't cute in anyone above 11 years old.

I know you would like to believe that, but I bet you also believe in gender so…. Anyway, onto our torrid tale, how do you feel about ‘aseries’ for your name, or would you like a pseudonym? I’m off to write soon so promo answer would be appriviated

I would like to believe that the majority of MN sex & gender forum posters were all one person under different usernames, but sadly I don’t think anyone can type that fast

i would love that - @Hearach15 please advise of your interest or otherwise in internet-based torrid passion

I wonder if the admiration that some here have for the Baroness despite her long record of homophobia, her active campaigning to restrict abortion rights and the fact that her arguments are both factually inaccurate and evidentially shaky is linked to the fact that the case they are trying to make about Pride is equally weak and their hostile views on trans people not shared by the majority of the population.

Again, a bit of a reach based on one friendly exchange. Also, are you using ‘bromance’ in a very broad sense or are you assuming I’m a man?

We've had sports federations "all over the place", in an official meeting, saying, that despite the equality act explicitly allowing for the legal exclusion of men in women's sports, they're scared to do it.

Bomb threats, rape threats, threats of legal action, make sure that people everywhere are aware they need to toe the line.

It seems you are reluctant to accept that the majority of LGB people are not ‘gender critical’ and are supportive of trans inclusion

Meaningless nonsense. It's perfectly acceptable for every single one of those LGBT people to be heterosexual men, according to your ideology.

That’s sad. I was hoping for a torrid tale of romance and passion that began in the wilds of the FWR boards, spanning countless threads and endless derailing to finally come together as one in their love.

Most probably two different logins for the same user.

Awww another bromance is progress! Sweet! Love a good love story I do. @Hearach15 , @aseriesofstillimages dont forget to credit mumsnet with the start of your love story .

I think we've even seen in the photos Halifax posted, a number of their employees not exactly looking happy having to join in with all of their Pride themed events.

We have seen too many incidents of businesses "strongly" suggesting workers take part in Pride events, wear rainbow lanyards etc.

The suggestion employees add pronouns to their emails (because mandation would be illegal), where those who do not are duly noted down.

So yes there is a long history is people being forced voluntarily to toe the line.

@Hearach15 Thanks!

@Conflictedunicorn @PurgatoryOfPotholes

It’s interesting that, when you can’t find anything to criticise in a post, you resort to oddly speculative personal insults. To suggest that my colleagues, who volunteered to spend their Saturday afternoon marching at Pride because they thought it would be a fun and worthwhile thing to do, and who knew in advance that we would all be wearing the Progress Pride flag, were somehow intimidated into ‘toeing the line’ on trans inclusion, is quite a reach.

Also, to be clear, I offered the mini flags around when we were assembling before the march, so it wasn’t crowded or loud, and I was able to explain what all of the flags were to anyone who didn’t know. One of the options was the plain old non-progress Pride flags.

It seems you are reluctant to accept that the majority of LGB people are not ‘gender critical’ and are supportive of trans inclusion. I don’t understand why, as it wouldn’t stop you pointing out that a minority of LGB people feel differently, or making your arguments about women’s rights.

Oh dear. Some people really do not like clever women. And if those clever women are articulate, it makes it even worse. And then when they realise that those women have way more power than they will ever have, the meltdown happens.

Clever, articulate, powerful women.

Smarts doesn't it.