Baroness Nicholson on Regent Street flags

Yes I suspect you are right. But it’s all material for my novel. It’s a jilly cooper/Barbara Cartland fusion with a love triangle between hearache , anti fascist and the other one I can’t be bothered to remember. You’d think they’d change tactics, try something new, but it’s the same old same old.

I don’t categorize hearache as an ideological zealot. I won’t put a name to what I suspect of their motivations. I don’t want my posts deleted but I suspect the motivations are age old and still sadly pretty common. Despite the assurances, no doubt from many, that they are ‘progressive’.

Plus ca change.

It’s called wooing the world - love In The gender wars. It’s coming along nicely.

A worthy heroine indeed 😂

I’m just using them to collect material for my novel. @Hearach15 is one of the main characters

I have seen these troll zealots on other forums and they always use the same tactics. They ignore other posters, copy and paste the same old links and try and flood the discussions until everyone sane gives up. Some forum moderators I have seen don't tolerate their antics and will hoof them until they learn to act like adults

Me too @Helleofabore you are way more patient abd kind than some posters deserve. Anybody who used gendergp as what they think is a credible source, as well as posting a link to a flawed study as a gotcha does not deserve anyone’s time

I salute your patience Helleofabore

Hearach15 The Harvard study you quote focused only on adults "The following sociodemographic covariates were examined: age (18-44 years, 45-64 years, and ≥65 years),"

I am on a small phone and without access to a large screen for one month. And I cannot see how I can access the data outside a few charts.

So, the reality is, I am not going to be able to analyse it properly.

And it actually doesn’t matter. Because I have been discussing a particular cohort that is not adequately represented in this data to be of relevance.
This will not include enough of the young female cohort I refer to to make relevant conclusions.

anyway, some initial thoughts in any case, this is apparently survey data and I cannot see the collection mechanic.

In just reading this abstract though there are some other concerns.

The control group included respondents who desired gender-affirming surgeries but had not yet received any. Respondents were included in this group if they answered “Want it some day” for at least 1 of the aforementioned gender-affirming procedures but did not answer “Have had it” for any of them. We excluded participants who did not report desire for any gender-affirming surgeries.

Isn’t this self fulfilling?
Any patient who might desire, even desperately desire because they see this as a panacea, would be expected to have poorer mental health.

Wouldn’t it be logical to compare those who have had the surgery to those who did not want it and who might be happy with their bodies? That would assess whether the surgery brought the mental health issues in line with those who are not distressed about having to wait / may never get the surgery.

Also, smoking?
We know from conversations with transitioned males that they are constantly told not to smoke. I would expect to see some questioning to weed out those who have stopped smoking due to medical advice… and that the reality is that a large % would have stopped smoking due to those reasons, not necessarily because their mental health improved.

And did they stop smoking nicotine and switch to vaping or other alternatives? That would need investigating.

Plus hysterectomies. Almost as many females had hysterectomies as mastectomy (euphemistically called top surgery when most other operations were given appropriate medical terms..
but hey it is just women’s health being discussed…). There is no way to ascertain the reason for those hysterectomies.

Was it due to atrophy and other issues due to the drug regime? Was it purely voluntary?

And the age of the females having surgeries compared to the males.
That is hugely significant for several reasons (only one being that those females if young have not encountered the long term health issues associated with their decisions).

Also

Respondents in the exposure group were more likely to endorse a history of gender-affirming counseling,

Ie. This group also was more likely to have had counselling services to improve their mental health.

I cannot read on this screen exactly how (and no data) this ‘co-variate’ was treated in the analysis.

How were other comorbities treated too?

I think I want to see the data collection device and the data on this one.

Also, in regards to the ‘prestige’ appeal ‘it’s Harvard’. It is not led by a clinician with experience it seems. I think they were master’s students at the time. And you could say ‘it’s Yale!’ For that Yale study where the conclusion was retracted just over 12 months later.

I will wait and see whether there is any corrections for this study. I am too tired to look for any now.

But. Again. It may be that the previous cohort is well treated by surgeries. Do you deny the current clinicians, and past clinicians now doing research, are saying there are issues with using the same treatment plans for this current cohort of young transitioners who are the majority female? and that the two cohorts are different?

I look forward hearache to any answers to my concerns that I have mentioned.

I'm idly scrolling through a covid fog and am in awe, as ever, of Helleofabores patience, thoroughness and expertise.

Contrast with the poster who uses GenderGP as a source.

Seriously, Hearach15, you might want to do some more research into where your information is coming from.

Linked form a study in the American Psychiatric Association: psychiatry.org/news-room/news-releases/study-finds-long-term-mental-health-benefits-of-ge

For fucks sake.

Do read what you are posting ?

And again, you and GenderGP. Another link you have posted (by the way have you read the news about the Webberlys and GenderGP ?) are relying on data prior to 2015-17. Why nothing more recent?

The bulge of young female transitioners were just really being reflected in the stats transitioning then.

Either way, I have posted a European longitudinal study previously on other threads that wasn’t measuring detransitioners, that showed even amongst the previous cohort there was between and 8 and 9% detransition rate for medically transitioned males and females. It was released in 2017 and is ignored.

Yes. And of course you, I and others have been saying this for a long time.

And some posters have direct experience too.

Are you a child? Demanding that I analyse your link when I have not even had time to download it.

Have you even opened any of the links I have posted in your haste to try to score a gotcha?

You know I will read it. When have I not analysed your links?

When have you ever posted anything that showed you have understood what has been posted in links in return?

I don’t recall you adding anything constructive and even critically evaluated.

Yet, here you are giving readers yet another live demonstration on the inane tactics of activists who have nothing but emotionally manipulative posts to pop onto the internet.

How did I not know that Baroness Nicholson sponsored a bill to restrict abortion? Have I been living under a rock?

I don’t think I can accept that her position is ‘nuanced’. Especially not now.

I have to say, I think this is more significant than her opinions on flags.

I have been very upfront, I am on a phone. I am also suffering significant sleep deprivation and I have been posting other posts.

Did you want me to answer you immediately?

Do you think that you can continue to claim moral high ground because I haven’t looked at your link?

by the way, seems rather hypocritical considering you posted a link to the correction of a study you posted as a gotcha. But crack on.

No you are not thick.

We know about this study. We dissemenated it on this board previously.

Particularly the Retraction of its conclusions.

I think depression and anxiety is very common among all teens. Self-harm is common, and so are thoughts of suicide. It is an extremely difficult age even at best. A general sense of dismay and shock about puberty is hardly uncommon either and adds to the unhappiness. In girls pms can definitely cause suicidal feelings. Usually people feel a bit better and more able to cope by the time they are in their early twenties.

If a teen has dysphoria about their body and says they feel depressed, why should one assume they are more depressed, anxious or suicidal than teens at large whom no one really bothers with?

Being ‘trans’ may be a cry for care and attention, as much as anything else.

Cohorts would need to be so well chosen that they encompass groups of depressed but non trans identifying teens for comparison.

Also, trans identifying teens may have suffered sexual abuse, other trauma, be in care, be autistic, feel they are outsiders, have internalised homophobia but possibly emerging homosexual feelings - all of these factors quite apart from the general horrors of this age group could be a factor in their depression. anxiety, or suicidal feelings.

Unless a study shows a comparison cohort that has truly had genuine explorative therapy first - it is very difficult to take it as being serious evidence of the therapeutic value of so called ‘gender care’ puberty blockers, x sex hormones, surgery on young people.

Also, any studies need to extend over many years to find really meaningful comparison.

Just like that, you have again shown you don’t have any depth of knowledge about the current cohort of young people and children transitioning and you are trying to reach for anything that you can find on this.

If you did know anything about the current cohort, you would not post a 2014 study.

This is why trans healthcare is so important and why I will always support them having prompt access to it.

Please post your evidence for implying that anyone on this thread doesn’t want the very best health treatment for trans people, particularly for young trans people and children.

And please post any evidence on this thread where people have stated they don’t want prompt access to that very best health treatment.

We are telling you that clinicians directly involved with treating trans young people and researcher, and health organisations are raising the alarms that the current treatment paths advocated by some activists and groups are not appropriate for the current cohort of young people and children.

Particularly females.

It is you in your attempts to demonize posters who are presenting yourself as being more knowledgeable and seemingly having superior morality.

It is you who time and time again, across different threads, seem to ignore the needs of young female transitioners.

For whatever reason you are doing it, that is what it seems you are keen to keep on doing.

Let me spell it out for you again. Young female transitioners have medical needs that are not being met. There is. Long list of experts also pointing this out. I am happy to collate as many as I can if you want proof.

Young female transitioners ARE NOT like male transitioners.

And their needs have so far been ignored by some males who, for whatever reason, wish to prevent female needs being fully considered here.

Errr the first paragraph??? Am I being thick or is that an errata notice saying the study was flawed.

The American Journal of Psychiatry has published an erratum notice after conducting a statistical analysis that was prompted by letters questioning the methodology of “Reduction in Mental Health Treatment Utilization Among Transgender Individuals After Gender-Affirming Surgeries: A Total Population Study.” The erratum explains why the study’s conclusion “that the longitudi
nal association between gender-affirming surgery and lower use of mental health treatment lends support to the decision to provide gender-affirming surgeries to transgender individuals who seek them” is too strong.

Interesting that you are unable to disprove the research by Harvard University and the American Psychological Association (I'll take my advice from them and the trans people I know who have actual experience).

The fact is that if transition is bad then more people would detransition. Of course, some do but:

"On average, 97% of people who are transgender are happy with their decision to transition. Only ~3% of trans people experience some form of regret...These detransition statistics are for 2022."

www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/

Linked form a study in the American Psychiatric Association: psychiatry.org/news-room/news-releases/study-finds-long-term-mental-health-benefits-of-ge

Why would I deny trans people the right to something that 97% view positively?

Why do you think there is not a higher % of trans people who regret transitioning if it is so bad?

And lastly

Bone density


Bone Health in the Transgender Population


Rothman & Iwamoto


2nd July 2019


www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6709704/

Also unknown are the long-term effects of puberty blockade, the effect of changes in body composition and the optimal type, timing, dosage, and route of administration of GAHT for bone outcomes.


And


GnRH analogues are frequently employed to provide puberty blockade in adolescents with gender incongruence or gender dysphoria. From their use in other medical conditions such as prostate cancer, their deleterious effects on the bone are well known, although these have the potential to be reversible if treatments are stopped or add back therapies can be given


And


However, Z-scores in the trans boys also showed an expected drop during GnRHa treatment. Similarly, they did not fully make up their bone loss as Z-scores at age 22 were still lower than baseline


Meaning, the authors acknowledge little is known about the lasting effects of puberty blockers. In this study, they propose some positive effect from cross sex hormones for females but ths results show that it doesn’t really make up the loss from puberty blockers.

This goes is a good explainer of the above study.

segm.org/the_effect_of_puberty_blockers_on_the_accrual_of_bone_mass


1st May 2021


Dr Michael Biggs has been calling for the release of data from the Tavistock’s experiment since 2019. A subset of the data were finally released following the judicial review into puberty suppression at the Tavistock clinic. Biggs’ reanalysis has just been published in the Journal of Paediatric Endocrinology and Metabolism. It finds that after two years on GnRHa, the Z-scores for a significant minority of the children had declined to a level that should trigger clinical concern.

This is a study from Harvard University - are you seriously suggesting that you know more about this subject than Harvard?

Appealing to authority isn't an argument.

Also from Sweden:

lakartidningen.se/aktuellt/nyheter/2022/02/socialstyrelsen-unga-ska-bara-fa-hormonbehandling-i-undantagsfall/

Also look for the Swedish documentary The Trans Train


And

www.svtplay.se/video/33358590/uppdrag-granskning/mission-investigate-trans-children-avsnitt-1?id=jp9dBRA

After 4 years on blockers 'Leo' hasn't grown, has osteopenia, spinal fractures and is in constant pain. 12 children in Stockholm have 'healthcare-acquired injuries' from blockers.