UK students more anti-free speech than ever: cultural socialism

Well, not money so much as economic role.

You could be a rich peasant. For example. A person who owns the means of production can go bust.

The idea in this is they are taking that capitalist/worker dyad, which is economic and a functional relation, and applying it to other dyads that are being described as functional. But they are culturally defined or cultural in their origin, so things like white/PoC, cis/trans, straight/queer, settler/indigenous.

It doesn't really work, but it describes the way some think.

@AlienatedChildGrown TITs - love it :)

Yes, absolutely.
I really rate the "Political Spectrum" idea that political opinions fall along two axes - liberal/authoritarian with regard to behaviour; redistributive or otherwise when it comes to money. Socialism, in the original sense, is about money, not behaviour, so talking about "cultural socialism" here doesn't make very much sense.

Historically, in this country, the Left has tended to subsume relatively redistributive policies and relatively social-liberal ones. However, there's no absolute reason why the two should be found together - currently, it's the most redistributive "hard left" that's also the most authoritarian with regard to enforcing gender ideology.

GREAT POST

I would characterise the students' sentiments as classic anti-blasphemy. Not in the sense of being sincerely upset, but in the outrage that someone has said what should not be said. It's a fearful, conformist kneejerk instinct. Except now the god is Other People's Feelings. The hypothetical feelings of the most easily-offended person in the world, of course; the lowest common denominator.

I see featherbrained adults I know clucking about, gleefully turning things over to find "Ooh, is that a bit problematic? Ooh, did someone say the wrong word? Are they a baddie?" like it's a game. In my experience they are self-absorbed people with a proudly narrow outlook on life. They also seem to get a bit of a kick out of it, like a child who's been told not to touch something moving their finger right next to it while grinning at you. "But I'm not touching it, Mum! I'm a good boy!". More understandable in an 18yo than a 38yo, of course.

It’s the very height of bad taste and poor judgment to throw around accusations of “fascism” like this. Deeply juvenile — in my day only done by a certain kind of teenage public schoolboy who liked to model himself on The Young Ones.

It’s really exceptionally ignorant and poor taste to compare people whose perfectly lawful political views you just don’t happen to like, to what happened under fascism. For shame — when there’s real war going on right now showing you what happens under actual totalitarian politics — tanks, bombs, rape, mass murder, cities left in rubble. You people should be absolutely ashamed to go about spouting such ignorant hyperbolic rubbish.

I tell you what — whose political system will you prefer when the jackboots start marching in? Would you prefer to be somewhere like Mariupol today, with your family being shelled by soldiers from an extreme regime; or won’t it seem that bad then to live in a normal democratic society where people haven’t actually literally murdered anyone, but are merely actually allowed to air their silly old opinions no matter whether you disagree?

Do some bloody reading about “fascism” to start with, and have a bit of a think about what it looks like to be spouting such childish and arrant nonsense at people ffs.

Why is this racist being racist?

because he's racist.

Why is @MangyInseam supporting him? a question only they can answer

And yet polls show a considerable majority of them believe the Clinton story that the 2016 election was stolen by Vladimir Putin.

A considerable majority of who? And which polls show that?

And yet polls show a considerable majority of them believe the Clinton story that the 2016 election was stolen by Vladimir Putin.

This despite 4 years of investigation by Democrat operative Robert Mueller proving the whole story was a hoax.

Doubts of one kind or another about voting in the US are found all across the political spectrum, we've seen them for years. They are a politically disenfranchised nation which no doubt is part of it, but it's also a huge bungling bureaucracy that most citizens think is somewhat corrupt.

You are making a bit of a leap with "in principle" there.

I've suggested that she think seriously about something like that, and I think she is considering it. She has to start applying next year so things may change, she has a summer job that might push her in a different direction and she really needs to try and earn some scholarship money, so we'll see.

Again, you need to watch the whole interview.

He is linking what he sees as a war on western or European culture with the id pol thinking about "whiteness," suggesting that the latter exists as a mechanism for the former. That is, the people undertaking this see it as a war on whiteness and justify it on that basis, when really it's an attempt to discredit a whole culture.

He talks about this about an hour before the clip you posted, it's what the rest of the interview is predicated around.

But the reality is that many news sources in the UK are brazen, obvious, unashamed mouthpieces of Tory propaganda masquerading as "news". Why should we call it anything other than what it is, or waste time considering it when we're trying to find out actual news?

And yet polls show a considerable majority of them believing the Trump story that the last election was stolen - and thus supporting, at least in principle, Trump's attempt at a fascist coup. And Trump, having nailed his colours to the mast as an ACTUAL fascist with no regard for democracy whatsoever, is a frontrunner to win the next Republican nomination because they know he will be popular with voters.

Can't say I much agree with your conception of "moderate".

No, they don't Because they think it is just them who get to decide.

That's just nonsense. I wouldn't show hate speech either, unless we were specifically looking at it as a topic. Or vacuity? Do you mean vacuousness? Well I've certainly shared materials with students that I personally find vacuous, because it's important to always look at more than one side of an argument. But you can hardly accuse Douglas Murray of being vacuous. He's devastatingly eloquent and erudite.

I wouldn’t show hate speech or vacuity . Murray fails on both counts

I teach adults; they can complain for themselves if they have a problem. Luckily, the adults I teach are pretty open-minded. I share all kinds of material with them, introduce them to ideas from across the political spectrum. That's what education is supposed to do - it's not supposed to be propaganda.

The Bit where he’s talking about the war on white people. If I found out anyone was showing that to my kids I would make a complaint

Honestly, Mangy, your DD might be better off looking for an apprenticeship. Lots of employers now are not that interested in graduates anyway - they want young people who are bright and hardworking and they'll train them into a profession. They don't want indoctrinated wokesters with meaningless 2:1s (because really there are no meaningful academic standards now at uni.) I don't think there are any universities left now who are doing what universities are supposed to be doing. But I know that going into a job or apprenticeship or even a vocational course is probably not what your DD is wanting. It's a rubbish situation to be in.

My daughter is getting ready to start applying to programs after finishing school. She's inclined towards university and would be good at what universities traditionally do, but man, it is a huge question whether that is what she will find. She has decided against a few areas of study that are particularly closed, and also against a few institutions that have become obsessed with id pol - including where I attended. It's depressing to see what some institutions and departments have become.

My fear is she'll get a crap program despite best efforts and owe large amounts of money at the end.

Those statistics (in the article) are scary. I must admit I do tell my students that they might want to think twice about going to university. After spending a year or two years where we discuss everything under the sun, they are going off to institutions where they'll be scared to open their mouths. To be fair, the trend has been trickling down to colleges for a while and there are now some 'off limits' subjects. The older students are still wanting to talk and discuss everything, but the younger ones are horrified by the very idea of discussion.

I often share Douglas Murray videos with students - he has a lot to say that's relevant to them. Obviously I share other resources too.

You know DM wasn't talking about Muslims in the clip, right? You watched the whole interview I assume, it's an hour or so long. It's not about Replacement Theory or even about immigration.

You aren't filling me with confidence that you have actually watched what he said or understood it.

Nah you’re alright

-I’ve read his vile anti Semitic piece about Peter Gumbel amp.spectator.co.uk/article/history-shouldn-t-be-used-against-us/amp

ive Watched his pompous bullying great replacement video
twitter.com/adamrutherford/status/1539141551972143105?s=21

why would I waste my time reading his book?

I want to see what he's written in support of the two key fascist figures of the 20th century - Benito Mussolini and General Franco. Int he UK of course we had Sir Oswald Mosley.

Personally, fascists have never rightly caused me concern. Fascists didn't enact The Holocaust, fascism has no political standing in the UK, let alone the US. In Italy, particularly in the north, Jews from southern France were hidden for years from both Nazi occupiers and collaborators. Franco's Spain chose to be neutral in WWII and its diplomats interfered with Nazi efforts (Franco's Spain and the Jewish Rescue Effort During World War II)

What does though cause me concern is National Socialism. neo-Nazism still thrives in Europe. The Labour Party came under its thrall in 2015-2020, and the ECHR report made uncomfortable reading (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/29/key-findings-of-the-ehrc-inquiry-into-labour-antisemitism) not least because the evidence of neo-Nazi influence still persists. The ECHR found evidence of neo-Nazi language being employed by Labour Party officers during that period. I'm old enough to remember the BNP (British National Party) and before that The National Front, and never rightly thought that such times and the vocabulary that went with it - particularly the persistent Holocaust Denial, would be seen in the UK again. I guess a big clue was when David Irving endorsed Jeremy Corbyn (as had the KKK's David Duke, Nick Griffin of the BNP and of course, David Icke). As you likely suspect, I don't have a great deal of time for socialists who think the word 'socialist' should always be preceded by 'national'.

Language of course has meaning. I don't believe Douglas Murray, author of that presumably fascist tome 'The Madness of Crowds' (2020) has been endorsed by David Duke, David Irving, Nick Griffin or David Icke, but then again, being a 'fascist' I doubt he will be of much interest to them.

Now I have to confess I've read 'The Madness of Crowds' and still have my copy. Why not take up Pluvia's offer? Why not we all go through it and try and identify its fascist leanings? Hey, we could all learn something, and I bet even The Guardian, who gave it a top review, would be interested in the feedback. Just 304 pages and once I've finished my current book (David Skelton's 'The New Snobbery: Taking on modern elitism and empowering the working class' which you've likely already read) I'll have a free week.

Or if you want to run through 'War on the West' I'll happily do the same. But that one, though I have it, is on my reading list, so it will be a first read for me. You will have the advantage of having read it already.

Give me an Pluvia the nod and I can start-up a new thread in Mumsnet - What We're Reading