Another go woke go broke - McCains

I’m not into drag, and whilst others are into the history it’s not really my thing

My main issue is when I see that advert it’s no different to all the other sexist comments women have to put up with

The outfit and hair doesn’t change the derogatory remarks it just means the ad agency and marketing person thought it was ok

I think it’s pretty poor generally

Fwiw I have dragged up myself o cw or twice. It is very very different for a woman to dress male than it is for vice versa. Why is that? Why do drag kings get stick from queens, yet I've never seen or heard the reverse within the scene?

Big Fat Quiz of the Year (2019). An apology was made for the term being 'transphobic' rather than because It's offensive to women -

metro.co.uk/2019/12/28/vivienne-hits-back-criticised-using-word-fishy-big-fat-quiz-year-2019-11970023/

From the current Ru Paul Drag Race Fandom dictionary. States that drag queens take fishy as a compliment but 'non drag' women believe it to be an insult -
rupaulsdragrace.fandom.com/wiki/RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race_Dictionary#F

From the last few years -

www.marieclaire.com/culture/news/a13716/rupaul-drag-race-terms-to-know/

www.thedailybeast.com/rupauls-drag-race-slang-tuck-sickening-and-more-drag-terms

I've only actually seen two articles where the term fishy is criticised. The one you linked above and one by a writer at Marie Claire.

So fishy is the old-fashioned term and now drag is much friendlier to women? Or now drag is inoffensive and mainstream?

What is it that makes drag subversive or challenging? Blokes in women's clothes? Like a stag party?

And it might not be as bad as Anna Bortion, but it’s no accident that “Bagga” is a deliberate pun on that most enduring of misogynist terms, the “old bag”. Still think he’s so pro women and nuanced?

Yep that’s exactly what I said above, I’m glad we’re having this debate. So I take care on bored you have a different view and a woman.

Sorry o should have made it clear, the women objecting to drag, for example drag story time.

Honestly I’m not trying to be antagonistic towards you, it’s helpful to hear your views. I’ve enjoyed reading your posts.

But then it’s very like the use of the word “queer”. Young people think it’s fabulous and liberating because they have never thought about or experienced where it came from. Those of us who had it shouted at us in the street by thugs don’t see it as all rainbow and benign.

My voice is female. I am a woman. We don’t speak with a single voice. We can disagree.

Fishy is a really really old fashioned term and rarely used in the actual community nowadays. A number of queens have spoken out against its use publicly and the fact it was used in drag race was controversial even at the time both in and outside the community. This is another issue with the mainstreaming of drag - the tiny percentage of drag performers who get into the mainstream become the representatives for the entire community and they’re not always the best advocates.

attitude.co.uk/article/drag-sos-stars-cheddar-gorgeous-and-anna-phylactic-reveal-why-they-wont-use-the-term-fishy/22435/

through a mainstream Lena’s it loses the context that makes it inoffensive.

Drag has always been a thoroughly middlebrow, mainstream kind of entertainment, though - that’s why it originated in pantomime, minstrelsy, music hall and variety performance! It was the one way gay culture could pull in straight audiences, and that was by deliberately being crude, vulgar, sexist and actually a bit homophobic. That’s what made it palatable to audiences at all. No-one thinks Bagga Chipz or RuPaul are predatory threats to their children: but the entire point of it is to be vulgar and sexually inappropriate; that’s the entire point of the acts (and was the point way before anyone saw it as a great focal point of gay subculture).

But those sexist innuendoes should have gone the way of Benny Hill (who LOVED a bit of drag: it was one of the most played up bits of his act - Google a few photos).

Many gay male drag performers of the past, like Danny La Rue in fact, were notoriously unhappy in the caricatured drag roles the entertainment industry of the time forced them into. One of the reasons that drag is not by any means universally loved by gay people — far from it.

Just to say I’m really sad and tired at women’s voices being not listened to.

Honestly it could make me cry that my daughter is growing up in a world where it’s still ‘ok’ for a man to make jokes about breasts.

It brings back horrors of having my bra strap ‘twanged’, having my tits grabbed in clubs, having ‘show us your tits’ shouted at me.

'Fishy' was used on Big Fat Quiz of the Year. You really can't get more mainstream than that. It was jarring watching the guests and audience laughing at the definition of fishy.

'Oh how hilarious! Women's vaginas stink of smelly fish!' (complete with a hand waft at the crotch) 🙄

@Leftonread interesting points being made by you, and actually for this board it’s nice to have a good old discussion about these issues!

I guess what I find really interesting is that you say that drag is not misogynistic, and is actually a challenge to sexual stereotypes. Now I’m assuming (sorry if I’m wrong) that drag is mostly populated by men - you are clearly an exception. So it is mostly men saying ‘we’re not taking the piss out of women, we’re on your side’.

Yet this is a group of women who are saying actually we’re not in agreement with that. And yet the women on here get called ‘pear clutches’, ‘prune faces’, etc.

So can you explain how when many women are saying we don’t like this, men respond with ‘well you’ve got it all wrong’?

I agree though that the community has massively changed and in the same way feminism is being pushed to be trans inclusive, the drag community is feeling pressured to be kink inclusive. If you spend time with performers though you’ll know what a hot topic this is and how much pushback there’s been.

Yes, and drag queens doing ads for kids food with mainstream brands talking about 'big knockers' and creating caricatures of women out of meat, is definitely evidence of this 'pushback'

Theres a lot to unpack here, none of it relevant to a chip company using Bagga Chips to sell fried potato smiles to adults.

I agree though that the community has massively changed and in the same way feminism is being pushed to be trans inclusive, the drag community is feeling pressured to be kink inclusive. If you spend time with performers though you’ll know what a hot topic this is and how much pushback there’s been.

I do think it’s wrongheaded to treat the drag community like a risk to your kids because it’s being used by predators to normalise predatory behaviour (if you can evidence this I’d appreciate it).

Broadly I think we agree - drag being mainstreamed is detrimental to the community in a number of ways, and through a mainstream Lena’s it loses the context that makes it inoffensive.

It's become a total turn off. Like many many glittery things we're repeatedly told are lovely and modern and edgy and - whatever, done now.

'Fish'. Revolting and nasty sexism. Whatever the person saying it is dressed up as.

Also, for every Miss Carriage, Anna Bortion etc etc there’s 50 Bagga Chips, Victoria Scones, Danny La Rue etc etc etc. You’re taking extreme examples of edgy acts and applying that to the whole. It’s not representative.

'Fishy' was on Drag Race and you can't really get much more mainstream than that. Although I'm sure you will tell me that that's not representative of drag either.....

Okay. Why have they decided on 'knockers'? Why is it funny? Why is the main joke about a male dressed as a hyper-feminine parody making an edible woman? Who finds this liberating? Shocking? Subversive? It's about as subversive as Les Dennis in a nun's habit. Or is it that no adults find this shocking anymore so we have to try it on the kids? What is the actual aim, here?

I recall being young and naive about predatory and abusive men.

It's so fucking commonplace. It's so banal. It's all over the place. It's not even exceptional or remarkable or shocking.

They will use every opportunity to exploit, to access vulnerable women/children.

We get accused of being 'hysterical' or imagining predators are everywhere, when the sad truth is that this is a truism that we are so inured to it barely even registers as shock anymore. What on earth do you think 'rape culture' means?

But drag had always been like that. One of the reasons for it in the first place was that gay male performers in the 40s-70s could get a mainstream audience not only through playing up caricatures of the gay man, but also through aping misogynist drag performances by men who emphatically weren’t gay.

Drag was originally a phenomenon where largely straight male performers mocked older women as ugly and masculine: it was very crudely misogynist. Gay drag acts levered that into a mainstream audience who already watched sexist and racist variety performances and comedy.

You need to watch more television from the late 20thc! Who TF do you think made Dame Edna and Lily Savage popular? The same audiences who were watching Benny Hill, New Faces and the Two Ronnies. McCains is a mass market food brand that targets itself at people who think Mrs Brown’s Boys is the height of wit and Allan Carr is a comedy genius. Sorry, but it’s cringe central.

Today’s version of drag does not take its roots from some kind of imaginary 1920s Berlin cabaret. It has its roots in crappy sexist variety ”comedy” from the 1970s and 1980s which has a long and problematic sexist and racist history. It’s very far from subverting gender roles.

To me the history of drag is irrelevant and not something I would read up on. So I am perceiving this advert as it is. Most people will not know the history of drag.
I'm okay with being offended but then there is something not being appropriate. Language like knockers which I thought had been left behind is not appropriate. We teach our children the correct words for body parts because it is respectful. Who in advertising standards thinks this is okay?
McCain's will be okay they got their as ertising even if it is cancelled what concerns me as there are adults in companies that think this is okay.

Also, for every Miss Carriage, Anna Bortion etc etc there’s 50 Bagga Chips, Victoria Scones, Danny La Rue etc etc etc. You’re taking extreme examples of edgy acts and applying that to the whole. It’s not representative.

If Mary Stopes came out with an ad campaign using Anna Bortion as the headliner you might have a point but there’s a very good reason why they haven’t. Instead, a chip company have used a performer called Bagga Chips.

that sounded horribly like you were insinuating that drag performers are paedophiles

No, that would be an utterly simplistic and false reading of what I said,.

As I said before; abusive and predatory men love being able to push all of the 'queering' and 'subverting' of norms, rules, boundaries and safeguarding.

Drag acts are being used by these people.

I also know quite a few burlesque and drag performers, for what it's worth. I worked in those circles extensively.

It is not how it used to be. Furries, fetish and nudity at 'family friendly' events is subversive, sure. It is queering norms, yes. Challenging stereotypes? Maybe. Is child protection something that needs to be challenged? Should we be queering safeguarding? Removing safeguards, perhaps?

I know there are plenty of people who do think that yes, we should be breaking down boundaries. Lots and lots of men are very keen to see the rules swept away.

I do not think this is a universally Good Idea.