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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I was at a party last night

57 replies

BrokenToy · 26/06/2022 16:29

With lots of people I either don’t know or have only met once (old friends of Dh, and they live hundreds of miles away from us, we travelled up to the party).

No topic was taboo, except one. We had fabulous tipsy conversations about politics covering the strikes, Brexit, Johnson. Allsorts of topics. Many differing views and a very intelligent cohort. (We did talk about other stuff as well, it was a fun party)

However, several times across different conversations with different people, the trans thing came up and EVERY SINGLE TIME the person I was talking with said oh I’m not not getting into that/I’ll be in trouble if I say what I think/don’t get me started I’ll never stop and it’ll offend somebody.

Every single person had the same views as I do (that the whole thing is nonsense) but hardly anyone would get into any sort of meaningful conversation. I didn’t keep bringing it up or anything, it sort of naturally flowed into conversations but it was striking that as soon as it was mentioned the topic was blocked.

’No debate’ really has had the intended effect, even among a bunch of educated professionals in their late 40s/50s. It was quite chilling really.

I can’t talk about it at home as I have two very woke young adult kids. DH and I discuss it obviously. But it was interesting to me that people who will happily and animatedly tell you why they disagree with you on the strikes, or rant about Boris, or any other hot topic, will not discuss trans issues or women’s rights. It’s completely taboo.

OP posts:
Musomama1 · 26/06/2022 18:13

MultiBird · 26/06/2022 17:46

I think it's because a lot of basically good and intelligent people don't really know what they think.

I work with mostly professional women. They're only recently starting to "get" the implications, mostly due to news stories around women's sport, but they still believe in inclusivity and that people should have the right to live as they choose. They're more likely to have empathy for the man "trapped in the wrong body" than for women fearful of losing female spaces, although they can see that argument too.

We've also been Stonewalled for years so it needs a switch in what you've been taught is right/wrong.

Yes I've found this with a couple of friends recently who used the phrase 'born in the wrong body' although umming and ahhing about the consequences of losing sex based rights.

It depresses me a bit. But unless you are naturally outraged by trans people (I certainly wasn't), it actually takes a bit of time, effort and critical thinking to understand the debate and it's implications, even if you are 'intelligent'. Plus people naturally want to and be seen to 'be kind', it's more attractive than saying 'no, stop it'.

334bu · 26/06/2022 17:52

I doubt that even the most committed believer in trans ideology actually believes that transwoman are female and transmen are malemand this is why it is so important to stop any debate as they can't argue something which is so demonstrably false.

MultiBird · 26/06/2022 17:46

I think it's because a lot of basically good and intelligent people don't really know what they think.

I work with mostly professional women. They're only recently starting to "get" the implications, mostly due to news stories around women's sport, but they still believe in inclusivity and that people should have the right to live as they choose. They're more likely to have empathy for the man "trapped in the wrong body" than for women fearful of losing female spaces, although they can see that argument too.

We've also been Stonewalled for years so it needs a switch in what you've been taught is right/wrong.

LordLoveADuck · 26/06/2022 17:40

Preference falsification would explain a lot but I have to wonder EmbarrassingHadrosaurus whether people are legitimately fearful that someone may quote them outside their circle of friends, that comments may get posted of FB.

achillestoes · 26/06/2022 16:41

It’s also clear that they agree with you. Nobody who thinks TWAW would be afraid of saying so at a middle class party. It’s a daft belief but it’s ‘inclusive’ and fashionable.

EggsBeforeChickens · 26/06/2022 16:38

No such restrictions in my circle and we're from all political persuasions and none. At a recent event I was talking to someone new to me ( and much younger) about similar issues & she mentioned an acquaintance was a member of the communist party and a dyed-red twaw-ter but added swiftly 'but I'm not'. I said 'me neither, but I wouldn't care if you were. I'd still like to hear what you think about xyz'.
I'm in despair at the current levels of self-cancellation and self-censorship on this and so many other things.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 26/06/2022 16:34

Preference falsification in action, sadly.

www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580

Preference falsification, according to the economist Timur Kuran, is the act of misrepresenting one’s wants under perceived social pressures. It happens frequently in everyday life, such as when we tell the host of a dinner party that we are enjoying the food when we actually find it bland. In Private Truths, Public Lies, Kuran argues convincingly that the phenomenon not only is ubiquitous but has huge social and political consequences. Drawing on diverse intellectual traditions, including those rooted in economics, psychology, sociology, and political science, Kuran provides a unified theory of how preference falsification shapes collective decisions, orients structural change, sustains social stability, distorts human knowledge, and conceals political possibilities.

A common effect of preference falsification is the preservation of widely disliked structures. Another is the conferment of an aura of stability on structures vulnerable to sudden collapse. When the support of a policy, tradition, or regime is largely contrived, a minor event may activate a bandwagon that generates massive yet unanticipated change.

In distorting public opinion, preference falsification also corrupts public discourse and, hence, human knowledge. So structures held in place by preference falsification may, if the condition lasts long enough, achieve increasingly genuine acceptance. The book demonstrates how human knowledge and social structures co-evolve in complex and imperfectly predictable ways, without any guarantee of social efficiency.