Roe vs Wade / gun laws

Bollocks. It's clear that if the US sorted its gun laws, then less people would be killed by guns. We know this because it has been the case in countless other countries.

It's the Onion headline:

'No Way to Prevent This' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

We are dealing with people who shat the fucking bed at the idea of protecting others by wearing a face mask because it was such a fucking infringement on their freedom. They are so far beyond reasoning, there is just no point even trying.

Thé US averages more than one mass shooting per day. How are you calculating that there have only been one hundred in forty years?

‘But of course every gun owner thinks they're a special case and will buck the statistics.’

I’m afraid this doesn’t make sense. In rural places in America more than half of households have a gun. The statistics are overwhelmingly on the side that they won’t die by gunshot wounds.

Its also been statistically proven that people who live in homes with handguns are over 50% more likely to be shot dead than people who live in homes without one.

It will surprise no-one to know that this disproportionately effects women. Living with a handgun owner increases the risk of being shot to death in a domestic violence incident, and it does not provide any protection against being killed at home by a stranger.

But of course every gun owner thinks they're a special case and will buck the statistics.

Ending a child’s life with a gun = okay. Ending a child’s life as an embryo = bad. Makes sense to those ole’ Christian boys.

‘86 of the mass shootings in the United States between 1982 and June 2022 involved weapons which were obtained legally; a clear majority. Only 16 incidents involved guns that were obtained illegally.’

That’s a much better argument than ‘they want to kill kids’.

86 of the mass shootings in the United States between 1982 and June 2022 involved weapons which were obtained legally; a clear majority. Only 16 incidents involved guns that were obtained illegally.

‘This is also a good example of how "why don't you just persuade people around to your side" isn't a simple solution. We are in physical danger.’

What do you propose rather than persuading your fellow citizens?

This is also a good example of how "why don't you just persuade people around to your side" isn't a simple solution. We are in physical danger.

‘But by continuing to allow guns, knowing they are responsible for the slaughter of women and children, how can they not see that people would view them as condoning this?’

Well, their argument (and it’s not completely without merit) is that anti-gun laws would succeed in removing guns from the very people who aren’t slaughtering women and children. Most of the gun crime is committed by people who wouldn’t surrender their guns if the law changed.

I’m not in agreement with them (I hate guns) but they are not condoning murder and it’s silly to suggest otherwise, because it just makes people double down. Better to look at the specific claims they make and see if they have merit.

‘The desire to own guns is deeper than needing to hunt or protect oneself from criminals or wild animals. It's to be able to fight the government.’

It’s to be able to (in their minds) resist a form of government that they might see as illegitimate. Increasingly in the UK we see rhetoric about the government trying to take power permanently, and trying to undermine the rule of law. Guns in the US are (in the minds of pro-gun advocates) about resisting that.

As I’ve said, I’m anti-gun, but a tyrannical government isn’t something to be sniffed at. It happens. Caring about it isn’t wanting to murder children.

Thank you for posting that for me @Thelnebriati . I recommend everyone taking a look. The police officer who attacked that woman is running for political office and is basing his platform on gun rights.
According to his Twitter feed, he was inspired to run because his state had introduced legislation to ban high capacity magazines for assault rifles. Not even the rifles, just the magazines that hold large amounts of ammo. He's such a freedom lover that he went to an abortion rally with a counter protest group and beat up a woman. This is the perfect example of the paradigm.

People who are pro gun rights in the US will accept any number of child deaths rather than allow even common sense controls. It doesn't mean that they don't "care" about dead children. They just care about having guns more.

The desire to own guns is deeper than needing to hunt or protect oneself from criminals or wild animals. It's to be able to fight the government.

This also ties into the posts up thread about why don't you just convince the majority of the people to be pro abortion? Because we are not a strict democracy, we have a reprentational form of government and many of our states have concentrated their political power in the hands of conservative politicians.

The constitution was not written by a majority of colonialists. It was written by a minority who used their political clout and firepower to overthrow England and then to drive out the Loyalists who politically opposed them and to reinforce slavery. In many slave holding states, slaves were the majority and yet were unable attain freedom through the democratic process. We had to have a Civil War.

Pro lifers want to have control over women's bodies and they don't want the Federal government to be able to supercede this power they have wrested for themselves and maintain by politically oppressing and disenfranchising anyone with contrary views. This is why the conservative Supreme Court has ruled the way they have, they want to throw power back to the states, many of which do not resemble a democracy in any way.

It's naked power, pure and simple. Control of women's bodies and guns go together. It has nothing to do with the sanctity of life or the wishes of the majority.

It's all going exactly the way those who control the power want, they have no incentive to change. Gerrymandering of voting districts and using many methods to make it difficult for the voters you don't like to vote are all commonplace. Democracy is pretty rotten in the US.

some sort of open referendum in every state, dis-linking the issue from the political process if not from the politicking - would that work?

Religious extremism comes in many forms.

Pro lifers are not pro life. If they were. they'd be campaigning for better maternal health care, or post natal care, or maternal leave. FGM and child marriage are still legal in many US states.

Because that’s their reading of the second amendment to the US constitution.

Others disagree with that reading, believing g it’s only referring to allowing an armed organised militia.

@Boxowine Here's a link to the incident;

''Providence police patrolman Jeann Lugo who was running for state Senate was arrested on an assault charge after allegedly attacking his female opponent during an abortion rights protest Friday night.''
news.yahoo.com/off-duty-rhode-island-officer-203840991.html

The 'pro-lifers' are perfectly happy for 7/8/9 year olds kids to be collateral for the right to be able to buy a gun in a supermarket with no checks.

Perfectly happy.

None of it is logical. They have their beliefs and they will never stray from them, no matter how many times it is pointed out how batshit it is. Its just how it is in America.

Restricting gun rights and allowing access to abortion have one key thing in common in that the majority of the US population are in favour of them - around 60% in both cases. The issue is that the people in power are not representing the rights of the majority of the electorate, they're representing a more powerful minority.

Could you explain to me one good reason for having a gun?

That's a bit of a dim question. I know plenty of people who shoot for sport or who own a gun for vermin control, and even in the UK, police officers are armed for certain kinds of activities.

I live in Japan and it's possible to own a gun here, although you have to pass all kinds of screenings before it is allowed.

US gun nuts are ridiculous, but you just make yourself sound really silly by saying things like "why would anyone ever need to own a gun??" Even the strictest countries in the world do allow gun ownership for responsible people who have been through the proper processes.