What you all said was coming

Exactly Narwhalsh

I mean David Lammy thinks you can grow a cervix or it's an add on at surgery or some idiotic madness. And Fiona Bruce in question time scolded Professor Winston when he said "I can categorically say you cannot change your sex" (I paraphrase, haven't checked his precise words) and FB jumped in and said "well many people would disagree" and left him looked like a fuming five year old that's been told off for something they didn't do.

The great thing about this case is the public finally get to hear some harsh truths. I hope he wins but win or lose it's a case that needed bringing.

Excellent post. This is exactly what should be happening and it didn't.

People are being told left right and centre that they can become the opposite sex, even by their governments (looking at you Scotland) so I can understand that the assumption would be that the surgeries must be fit for purpose…

Which of course they are not and will never be because you can’t just turn a penis into a vagina.

I wonder how different that would have looked if the hospital had signed up to " boobytrap" an organisation that believed everyone who asks fir a mastectomy should get one no questions asked. And those drs who spoke to your mum walked around with pink and purple laces and lanyards having just filled out paperwork recording all the ways they make it easier for these mastectomies to be performed.

Would their be the same level.of care taken. Could we be certain of no conflict of interests.

It should all be Impartial and individual.

Obviously, it's in the interests of the trans lobby to push the "he knew what he was doing, what did he expect" aspect and completely ignore/downplay the poor mental health impairing decision making aspect.

Adult GIDS has an affirmation only policy. They do nothing to explore whether there could be underlying reasons for your distress and it is effectively a screening service to rule out physical barriers to medical transition. Tullip would not have had to “forcefully” argue for the surgery- the surgery is seen as the solution for gender dysphoria in an area where patients are effectively viewed as clients.

Look at the language used for the Indigo Pilot Clinics. They talk about informed consent, but it is framed in a client based environment where the individual chooses their “options”:

”Communication is key to helping you understand the services and options available to you. To support you throughout your journey with us, you will be assigned a care navigator. They will have lived experience as a trans or non-binary person as well as an understanding of pathways, services and resources available both within Indigo and more widely across Greater Manchester.

Care navigators are uniquely positioned to make your experience as easy, efficient and relevant to your needs as possible.”

indigogenderservice.uk/our-services/services-we-offer/care-navigation

It’s all warm and fuzzy and completely surface level. Where’s the in depth psychological assessment to ensure the medical pathway is suitable for each individual?

Where is the sense of caution when for hormones, you can be approved on your second visit (from the age of 17):

”We can recommend and support your own GP to start hormone therapy at your second appointment if:

you’re diagnosed with gender incongruence at your second visit;
you feel confident that you’ve understood the information we’ve shown you, including the possible risk and side effects of any treatment options;
you’re feeling ready to start hormones;
it’s medically safe for you to do so.”

indigogenderservice.uk/frequently-asked-questions

This model of acceptance on a vulnerable adult’s say so is utterly irresponsible and it needs changed. The govt is pushing ahead with this approach more strongly than ever due to the long waiting lists for the adult service. There is no will there for change. The Keira Bell case made it clear the courts will not rule for a blanket change, that litigation needs to be carried out at an individual level.

There is much focus on childrens services, but none on the adult service. What is going to happen when thousands of these current adolescents time out of children GIDS and are moved to the adult side? They have been brought up in a world of affirmation by schools, social media, their peer group without any chance to desist. Do they then suddenly become competent to make decisions as young adults when they are moved to a “client” based service?

I don’t think so. I firmly believe the adult GIDS service needs a complete overhaul and that in the current environment the only way to achieve this is through individual litigation. Tullip has been badly faked and I wish him the best of luck.

EXACTLY!!

So, he asked for the surgery on the NHS.

He got exactly what he asked for, for FREE.

Now he doesn't like the outcome, EVERYTHING IS SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT.

Instead of researching things like freezing sperm, IT'S SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT FOR NOT SPOON FEEDING MEEEE.

Ok then.

Good post. And this is why any surgeon performing a double mastectomy on a minor child for gender-related reasons should IMO be struck off.

NHS should not be funding this!

I agree. I've never understood how it's become an acceptable thing to do.

I also agree with whoever said how depressing it is to realise that homophobia is still such a big influence in all of this, internalised or otherwise.

Let’s talk about informed consent and what that looks like.

25 years ago my mum had breast cancer. It was fast growing and aggressive. She needed a mastectomy. She gave consent.

On the day of the surgery they redo taking you through the risks and expectations and what have you. Again she signs to consent to everything.

Her surgeon actually delayed her surgery to give her time to think about if she really wanted the mastectomy because he deemed her too upset to be fully capable of consenting in that moment.

A surgeon performing a surgery that she would die without still needed to reconfirm consent because he felt she wasn’t ok with the outcome/risks. And he waited until he felt he did have that consent.

That’s what informed consent looks like.

Not ‘doing your own research’. Not ‘well you asked for it so you must understand what you’re getting’.

A compassionate professional or professional team explaining exactly what the surgery involves, the risks, the possible outcomes, what you will and won’t achieve. Giving time and space and the safety to say no at any stage. Not performing that surgery unless they are sure you understand exactly what is involved, that you’ll cope with the consequences, that the reward is worth the risks (medically and personally) and that you are physically, emotionally and mentally stable enough to consent.

For me, this is really straightforward.

If you have dysmorphia, you are by definition unable to give informed consent to major surgery to a healthy body.
It's like giving an anorexic a bariatric surgery.

The dysmorphia is not treated by colluding with it.

I'd just like to point out that in the UK suing someone does not necessarily involve the complainant asking for a shit ton of money in compensation. I've no idea about this particular case but as a general principle that is true. In the NHS any compensation does come from general funding so is taken away from services for the rest of us.

We can't be at all certain that this person was told the realities of his operation before it took place as we've seen many times how 'special' transgender stuff is and how it's held outside normal procedures and processes. We all know how safeguarding is thrown to the four winds, how no evidence base is required etc where trans rears its ugly head. Same here I suspect.

He could, of course, have attempted to find out for himself what it'd be like but his head was probably so full of dreams he wouldn't have believed it.

No, but there need to be some serious questions asked about the medical checks and balances that exist when this results in surgery. And yes it will be difficult because the websites that he was looking at tell people exactly what to say to the doctors to achieve transition.

@WiddlinDiddlin excellent post.

So desperately sad. The poor man. I suspect the real culprits were the internet support group, offering friendship and pushing him to transition. There are so many poor people in this position. I hope it makes the NHS think carefully about such drastic interventions.

I really don't think its fair to blame him at all. The NHS isn't (or shouldn't be!) some quack service that performs surgery on demand.
And if you read his testimony, he didn't demand it.
He sought help for gender dysphoria from people calling themselves medical professionals within the NHS and was persuaded that it was the right course of action, despite his doubts.
A lot of people trying to do their research would turn to NHS advice and trust the specialists there.
They're not just turning up and demanding surgery. These are often vulnerable people seeking help who are being put on a medical pathway.
And this is the problem. The 'experts' are mostly self-appointed and ideology-driven, but if you don't know that, then you're going to trust that the specialist on the NHS is the expert.
Imo, there's little difference between this and a patient seeking help with mental health issues who is then recommended a lobotomy.
This was an utter travesty and the NHS completely failed him.
As others have said, this isn't going to be the last case. There are a lot of others who have been given unnecessary, life altering surgery.
Good for Tulip. Here's hoping this case will persuade the NHS to take a close look at what it's gender specialists are actually doing and more cases like this prevented.

But I do think the nhs would have gone through the risks, would have made sure he had adequate time between any discussions and the surgery so he had time to consider what he’d been told, etc. you have to fight for stuff like elective sections, sterilisation, etc.

I think the problem is he probably did understand what the surgery physically entailed (and therefore may struggle to be successful with suing) however I suspect he thought the surgery would be the answer to his mental/emotional issues. And when he came round from surgery and realised that was all there and he was exactly the same as before but with an amputated penis he’s realised that the surgery wouldn’t ever be the solution he was looking for.

Maybe he’ll be successful if he demonstrates they didn’t counsel him enough?

hopefully it might put the nhs/other doctors off doing this surgery.

The NHS should not be offering this surgery to anyone in the first place. It comes under the category of extreme body modification, not medical care. I have no issue with the NHS being sued - they should not have done and should not do this surgery.

I feel intense sympathy for this poor man. I think it's important to remember that even as recently as five years ago this surgery wasn't being questioned at all. Partly thanks to Mumsnet, the more outrageous claims of gender extremists are being questioned but it was a different political landscape back then.

Posie Parker pointed out that Susie Green (head of Mermaids) took her 15 year old child to Thailand to have this surgery on the morning of their 16th birthday) on Twitter. Posie got a lifetime ban from Twitter for using the word 'castrated'. So instead of people being outraged that a child was being made permanently infertile and unable to experience sexual pleasure, at the time people were outraged with Posie for telling the truth.

Posie got investigated by the police, Susie Green got an extremely well-paid job heading up a charity that, in my opinion, peddles dangerous misinformation.

At the time young people were being brainwashed to think that if they didn't get this surgery then the only other option was suicide - despite the fact that according to the Tavistock Clinic, suicide of young gender confused people is 'vanishingly rare'.

sadly, this is a result of the I want it and and I want it now lobby. Many decades ago when gender reassignment surgery was undertaken at CXH (one of the very, very few places that did it), the person wanter reassignemnt had to live as a woman for at least 3 years ( and that meant fully as a woman), have counselling every week while awaiting surgery, and various other steps undertaken. This was to ensure that the person really wanted surgery.
Then came the "I'm not waiting that long, I don't need counselling, I know what I want and I want it now' mob, who lobbied for faster times to surgery.
They won, this is the result

"First do no harm"

In the UK, and on the NHS, I suspect that he himself had to argue forcefully and coherently about why the surgery was right for him, and that alternatives were offered which he rejected.

I was privileged enough to watch nearly 200 medical doctors graduate a couple of years ago. They all swore to do no harm.

I agree with pp that this poor chap would have fought tooth and nail, with coherent determination to get this surgery in the first place.

The pandering to Mermaids and Co needs to stop. When in my NHS trust a woman cannot get her tubes tied because "you might change your mind" I'm not sure how this was allowed to happen.

He’s suing the NHS for a lot of money; money supposed to be used to treat people.

That’s why I feel little sympathy for him.

The detransitioner Keira Bell brought a judicial review to try to prevent under-18s from being given irreversible gender treatment. She was ultimately told that the right course of avenue for unhappy patients was litigation, not a judicial review.

This is what is happening here.

Obviously, this man was not under 18. However, it is very clear from whistleblower accounts that the NHS has not been doing its job properly when obtaining informed consent from patients or providing counselling to explore alternatives to physical transition.

The NHS has no business performing drastic surgery involving the removal of healthy body parts from people experiencing mental health difficulties. It should not be immune from being sued "because it's the NHS".

Concerns have been raised for a long time. The NHS should have listened.

I have nothing but sympathy for this man who was sold a lie and told (by the NHS) that physical transition would solve his problems.

I'm also expecting court cases in the US to start happening.