What you all said was coming

It is tragic but why the hell are the NHS performing this kind of surgery anyway? Haven't they got enough waiting lists of people who are sick and in pain and in genuine need of surgery/treatment? Of course it is common sense that a person who says they feel they are a different sex needs help of some kind but should the first port of call not be psychiatric? That it isn't the case is no doubt due to the influence of Stonewall and their kind.

Nice people.

That’s tragic. It’s kind a form of mutilation.

These stories will just keep coming and coming until the medical establishment wises up.

Montgomery v Lanarkshire is a fantastic judgement that should have transformed the way consent is handled in labour, but arguably didn't. (The judgement, which is worth a read, was written by the excellent Baroness Hale.) The key issue is informed consent and it certainly sounds as if Richie didn't fully understand what he was consenting to.

This seems a perfectly sane, reasonable statement. I will be interested to hear it argued with in court, not least because it's similar to the case Keira brought and tragically many more will follow.

The horrible thing is the poor person at the heart of it with all they have been through and the process now ahead to try and get any kind of justice. These people are owed a lot of compensation, and not as a consolation prize but because they have been left with major, lifetime needs ahead of them.

I didn't get very far into that. Transitioned from 13, therapist ignored parents Qs about med and responded with the suicide threat?

I hope whe names and shames them and they get to pay to undo what they did!

I've just seen a clip of a testimony from Chloe Cole who was encouraged to have hormones and surgery as a teen and is now detransitioned, aged 17. It's heartbreaking:
twitter.com/WomenReadWomen/status/1541840380982956032

My heart aches for detransitioners.
This is where #No Debate gets us.
This is where blocking all reasonable attempts at researching ROGD and destranistion gets us.
This is where stopping research on puberty blockers and long term research on taking cross-sex hormones gets us. Or if there is research, suppressing it in the media.
This is where cute euphemisms like top surgery or bottom surgery gets us.
This is where not even being able to say the correct medical term for the removal of male genitals on this site gets us.
This is where the BBC and other media outlets giving out wrong information about how puberty blockers are reversible gets us.

Social media is full of wrong information or disinformation, but the BBC and the rest of society collude with it. If there was an open debate about transition and the facts were presented in the media correctly, maybe some people would decide that it's not for them. Or at least would not want to medically transition.

Yes. It might also have had potential commissioning implications if the CCG decided to restrict or limit what they would fund in the future.

I don't know what his employer's conditions are for healthcare leave, perhaps that might have to be supported by involvement of secondary care.

I'm take aback at the recent additional details that he'd not met the surgeon before the surgery etc. It will be interesting to see the chronology of who did what and when and who took Tullip through the informed consent processes.

This isn't treatment for gender dysphoria, at least it's supposed to be but there's no evidence it works.
He was told it was going to work, and that if he didn't continue down the surgical pathway he couldn't have any more therapy either.

Being discharged can mean going back to the beginning of the waiting list. It can also mean a lack of access to hormones if your GP is unwilling to take that on- many GPs don’t feel qualified to do so.

@SkeletonFight I'd assume discharged would mean having to go back to the GP for referral and start the whole process again. Not just going to the bottom of the que.

Why did he fear being "discharged" though? I understand that for many the transition may go on for years and years and no surgery is opted for at all. What did being "discharged" mean in real terms? Does it mean he would have had to go back on a waiting list?

Blog by Tullip’s lawyer

www.harthanbarrister.com/blog/files/44eca404b30952053e28c53829866deb-5.html

“Montgomery v Lanarkshire [2015] UKSC 11 is the leading authority in relation to consent in English Law. The test is that a doctor is under a duty to take reasonable care to ensure that the patient is aware of any material risks involved in any recommended treatment, and of any reasonable alternative or variant treatments. The purpose of obtaining informed consent is so that the patient understands the severity of the condition, the advantages and disadvantages of treatment, and the existence of any alternative treatments.

A clinician treating Gender Dysphoria exclusively through the lens of a pathway to transition, excluding alternative treatments and alternative diagnoses, would likely be in breach of their clinical responsibilities. The clinician has a duty to contain and consider properly the patients treatment demands. The clinician must retain the capacity to identify red flags and apply the brakes or change direction. Above all else the clinician has a duty to do no harm, to avoid exposing patients to additional risks arising from their intervention.

I am grateful to those detransitioners who have contacted me with a view to bringing a clinical negligence action. They are brave people and I will put my heart and soul into working for them. As for the clinicians who did not dare to be wise and failed to resist being swept along with an ideological tide, well the tide has turned and they may soon need to account for their actions.”

Wow. Compare and contrast:

"Herron took out a payday loan to pay for an appointment at a private gender clinic in March 2014. He says that he was diagnosed with “transsexualism” after just two 30-minute appointments and a psychiatrist recommended he take medication to block his testosterone production. By 2015 he was attending appointments at the NHS gender clinic in Newcastle. He says that he twice turned down vaginoplasty surgery, before having an operation in 2018 after being told that he would be discharged if he did not take it up."

And:

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p097xwkf/a-change-of-sex

I accept the cold, uncaring way in which Julia's psychiatrist speaks and comes off in that series. But the difference in timing and being operated on couldn't be starker.

Article in the Times about the interview today:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9c6f39d8-f71a-11ec-84c1-32e852e780b0?shareToken=d5ae6b86da6fd72b988e4e01db351018

In the times radio he describes the coercion he was subjected to.

Mermaids 100% coerce. As demonstrated in the above article.

Undoubtedly.

I don't think it would work to ban all "treatments." It would be interpreted as fascist. What is wrong is that there's no ability to analysis and challenge.

Half of this is a myth on the internet though which is going to be the hardest thing to change. And why Ritchie has spoken up in the hope it trickles through. He said it was 100% internet driven.

Mermaids need to be taken to task.

unherd.com/2022/06/why-did-my-daughter-become-trans/?fbclid=IwAR0VUXbvPVFdiHDBTWmO45p5HSiZQjFjZefwjtfDg7CzV0AcY-AHSBHBtec

I suspect that when the wonderful Temple grandin dies she will quickly be posthumously transed....

Would like to know what trans advocates would think if the UK decided to ban all surgery like this.Is this something they would campaign against?

I presume so. Many of them are desperate for such surgery and it's the right course of action for some people. But there need to be safeguards and full information. There are ethics to consider when making permanent changes to a healthy body, including removal of partdm

Interesting to see this interview and to hear that he feels encouraged by older men on these forums he frequented. He ran with it. There is no one person or institution to blame for this. It's a hellish mess of insecurity, social media pressure and possibly mental health issues.

Would like to know what trans advocates would think if the UK decided to ban all surgery like this.Is this something they would campaign against?

Cross post @AuntMunca !

Why was @AuntMunca 's post deleted?
As far as I can remember she mentioned that Tullip (she used his correct name which is now public) was interviewed on the radio and I can't remember what show it was, (not one I listen to regularly) and she was critical of the female interviewer (whose name I don't recognise) in general terms but complimentary regarding this particular interview. I thought I might listen when I got home from work but now I don't know where to find it. I don't think she included a link. I honestly can't think what she said that was objectionable.

I don't know why my post was deleted (though I suspect a descriptive phrase I used is banned). I don't think it was the link to Aasmah Mir's interview with Ritchie which was on Times Radio this morning. This interview, which is well worth a listen to, and Mariella Frostrup having Janice Turner on this afternoon give me hope that Times Radio will begin to cover the sex/ gender debate more than it has done so to date.

twitter.com/TimesRadio/status/1541739774138105857

Just listened. He speaks very well - the affirmative model from those around him - both medical and online- combined with poor mental health to steer him along this path.

I don’t think money is the motive. He wants to highlight the dangers of a medicalised pathway that is unproven, for what should be therapy based support for troubled young people